Trumpism: Page 71 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Trumpism

Coombs

I absolutely feel ashamed, don't think it's wrong to at all, and I think divorcing the people from the government in what is supposed to be a democracy is very dangerous. We are the government, and if more people understood that, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

It's a complex thing, being part of any nation state. There's a huge range of emotional investments you might make, all of which are valid, and all can be productive, shame included. I hope we all feel enough collective shame to make it right one day.

Klaus

Coombs wrote:
I absolutely feel ashamed, don't think it's wrong to at all, and I think divorcing the people from the government in what is supposed to be a democracy is very dangerous.

You only get one vote in a democracy though, and gerrymandering, electorates and other surrounding factors have long since rendered the idea of direct democracy a bit useless. One illustration of this point is that a baboon who gets three million less votes somehow ends up getting elected. My point isn't that people aren't to blame for their actions; it's that they can't be blamed for other people's actions, whether they are fellow citizens or political representatives. We'd do well to remember that regardless of whether we're discussing the United States, North Korea or Hamas in my opinion.

Coombs

To some extent I agree, but I still think we need to look at sovereignty (a la Rousseau) as a function of collective will rather than as a straight summation of individual decisions.

I think we all need to be bear responsibility, not least because schismatic politics only serve to empower those that would divide us to suit their own interests. Slogans like "not my president" are not only inaccurate, they're also supremely unhelpful. It's not necessarily about "blame" in the negative sense, but about accepting responsibility in a broader sense. Not for your own individual actions, but for the collective that you can't help but be a part of. We should all suffer for each other, at least a little bit.

Mirth

goon wrote:
Unless I actively participated in getting Trump elected there's no way I'd feel ashamed. Angry perhaps, as I was with Brexit.

That being said, I do think Trump's views and ideas are representative of a large portion of the population. In fact, he's used the pre-exisiting sentiment in order to get elected. He's helped bring these attitudes to the fore and in some ways thrive, again much like Brexit. It's certainly made me realise that views that I thought belonged to a small minority are actually far more widespead.

Potentially, but these pre-existing sentiments are widespread amongst people as a whole and wouldn't be something that I blamed the average American for. Following that, when you have an economic crisis which manifests itself in groups of people being left behind you do end up with the fuel than fans those flames. You then have politicians like Trump or Farage who recognise that feeling and use a combination of half truths and outright lies to create a bogeyman.

I think there's generally a feeling of frustration and anything that isn't the status quo inevitably will be the favoured option - whether it's in the US, the UK or even in Germany if recent elections are anything to go by.

Qwiss

I don't think individuals have enough power to warrant them feeling shame for the system you are born into.

goon

Mirth wrote:
goon wrote:
Unless I actively participated in getting Trump elected there's no way I'd feel ashamed. Angry perhaps, as I was with Brexit.

That being said, I do think Trump's views and ideas are representative of a large portion of the population. In fact, he's used the pre-exisiting sentiment in order to get elected. He's helped bring these attitudes to the fore and in some ways thrive, again much like Brexit. It's certainly made me realise that views that I thought belonged to a small minority are actually far more widespead.

I think there's generally a feeling of frustration and anything that isn't the status quo inevitably will be the favoured option - whether it's in the US, the UK or even in Germany if recent elections are anything to go by.

That might be understandable in some circumstances but in Trumps case I think that’s a bit of a cop out, even if true. I don’t think being angry and being left behind justifies supporting someone as vile as Trump, never mind the sheer stupidity of it if you feel like he’s the man to help you.

Tony Montana

Mirth wrote:
goon wrote:
Unless I actively participated in getting Trump elected there's no way I'd feel ashamed. Angry perhaps, as I was with Brexit.

That being said, I do think Trump's views and ideas are representative of a large portion of the population. In fact, he's used the pre-exisiting sentiment in order to get elected. He's helped bring these attitudes to the fore and in some ways thrive, again much like Brexit. It's certainly made me realise that views that I thought belonged to a small minority are actually far more widespead.

Potentially, but these pre-existing sentiments are widespread amongst people as a whole and wouldn't be something that I blamed the average American for. Following that, when you have an economic crisis which manifests itself in groups of people being left behind you do end up with the fuel than fans those flames. You then have politicians like Trump or Farage who recognise that feeling and use a combination of half truths and outright lies to create a bogeyman.

I think there's generally a feeling of frustration and anything that isn't the status quo inevitably will be the favoured option - whether it's in the US, the UK or even in Germany if recent elections are anything to go by.

Ethnic minorities have always been the first groups to take the hit in economic crises yet you don't see them voting for Trump or far right parties in their droves.

Mirth

You don't think there's been a rise in identity politics in the past decade?

Burnwinter

Certainly white identity politics.

Tony Montana

Mirth wrote:
You don't think there's been a rise in identity politics in the past decade?

Politics has always at least partly been about race. There's no rise. It's just that ethnic minorities and women have more of a say so "white identity" politics seems more transparent now that the lie of brown people taking over is taking hold.

Mirth

My statement was a response to yours, not an opening position, since I agree with what you said anyway.

Big Willie

[Twitter]

flobaba

Back in the good old days when America was great and slavery was cool, and men were men and women knew their place, arm touching was a no no and by God and white Jesus we're going to make it great again.

banduan

I think he was being sarky.

jones

mags wrote:
I doubt if any American prez would threw fuel on the fire with a ploy like this...Never....

Tam, in case you were still wondering what I meant this is a prime example of what I was talking about earlier. Seems like it's impossible these days to criticise Trump without whitewashing the crooks who've come before him. This is not even close to the worst crimes and deplorable acts the US has committed with regards to Palestine/Israel just in the last 20 or so years yet apparently no American president would do something like this despite none of Obama Bush or Clinton doing anything but continuously waiving the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995.

mags

That Act, passed over 20 years ago, went nowhere until now.
Clinton never signed it into law. And no president has moved it forward since, except Trump.

No one is denying the wrongs the West has committed against Palestine and the Palestinian people.
I repeat the Palestinians have been wronged by the West and Israel. And it continues.

The US has made attempts in the past to lessen the powder keg situation, but wait, Trump has his most experienced diplomat working the situation.

Trump is his own worst enemy, besides he drinks too much Coke...

flobaba

Drinks or does?

arsedocmd

coke if he did, not Coke.

Claudius

Jeanne Moss did a great segment on CNN on Trump and Coke consumption today. Not her usual cats in trees stuff.

And then there’s this Roy Moore surrogate. Check his face at 49 seconds.

Bold Tone

I like how they moved on while his brain was struggling to comprehend

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