Trumpism: Page 18 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Trumpism

jones

Why set an article up comparing Trump and Milosevic in the first place then? They're not of limited usefulness but of no use at all. He might as well have pulled up Obama or Merkel as they've been caught telling lies countless times too.

That half-hearted disclaimer is not an excuse for me. Especially not for stuff like this:

When Milošević returned to Belgrade, he took up the banner of Serb nationalism and ousted his low-energy mentor, Ivan Stambolić. He provoked other republics to secede from Yugoslavia, and this led to years of warfare and war crimes.

That's not subjective commentary, that's a blatant lie and historical revisionism.

y va marquer

I'm not an authority on Milošević and his rise to power so I'm not going to enter into a discussion with you on whether or not that is "a blatant lie and historical revisionism".

It does seem that that particular lie and version of the history is not unique to the author of the article.

If you find the article objectionable fair enough.

jones

Not an authority either but I've read a book or two about Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars.

A particular lie not being unique to one author does mean what exactly? I thought that was the exact thing you were criticising a minute earlier - annihilation of the truth by repetition of lies over and over again. If you're genuinely interested in vox populi though just see how his piece is torn apart in the commentary section for its inaccuracies. Here's a comment which sums it up pretty well:

“I was one of the few American journalists whom Miloševic spoke with before he was overthrown and extradited to a war crimes trial in The Hague, where he died of a heart attack in 2006.”

And, you might have added, “before he was eventually cleared of charges of genocide by that court and also by the International Court of Justice.”

Your article is unworthy of The Intercept. It’s another example (of which we in the “Third World” see so many) of a Western journalist speaking about a region that he understands nothing about — even if that journalist has been there and written a book about it, like you.

Concentrate on your own country. Concentrate on attacking Trump, and the society that allowed him to happen — your society.

arsedocmd

jones wrote:
Not an authority either but I've read a book or two about Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars.

which?

Burnwinter

jones wrote:
Not an authority either but I've read a book or two about Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars.

What I knew reading the article is that a colleague of mine who is a Bosnian Serb refugee himself would have vehemently disagreed with it.

He would say that Serbia ended up carrying the can and becoming the bogeyman for quite deliberate strategic meddling by the US that led to the breakup of the former Yugoslavia along ethnic lines.

He escaped from near Srebrenica as a child and maintains that large numbers of ethnic Serbs were also massacred during the period and alongside the events that have become so infamous, including many family members. He's also pretty nostalgic for the Tito era: think he gets that from his dad who was a mechanical engineer and skydiving instructor back home, but has had to work as a machinist in Australia.

I don't really know the truth of events myself, though of course I fully believe the prevailing and widely documented account of the Srebrenica massacre. Perhaps that ignorance goes to the heart of the questions about reality and history in which the article's author indulges his comparison to Trump. However, the attributions of genocides are a bigger deal than the latest "fake news" about Hillary Clinton's email server.

Burnwinter

Dejan Lovren by surprise has a piece in today's Guardian about his experience as a child during the Balkans conflict:

There is only one moment, recounting the horrors that shaped his childhood and life as a refugee from the Bosnian war, when it all seems like it might be too difficult for Dejan Lovren to continue.

Lovren is telling the story of how he and his family had to flee their home in Kraljeva Sutjeska, the village where he grew up outside Zenica, and what happened to those who were left behind. “Zenica was attacked because it was a bigger city,” the Liverpool player explains, “but it was in these small villages where the most horrific things happened …people being brutally killed. My uncle’s brother was killed in front of other people with a knife. I never talk about my uncle because it’s quite a tough thing to talk about, but he lost his brother, one of my family members. Difficult …”

It is a remarkable piece of television, courtesy of LFC TV, and rare to see a Premier League footballer speak of such jarring memories on a club’s own TV channel. Lovren was only three years old when the civil war broke out that finished with more than 100,000 deaths. “We had everything, to be honest,” he says of their life before that point. “We never had problems. Everything went well with the neighbours – with the Muslims, with the Serbs, everyone was talking very well between each other and enjoying the life, everything was how they wanted. And then it [the war] happened.

“I wish I could explain everything but nobody knows the real truth. It just happened. It just changed through the night – war between everyone, three different cultures. People just changed. I just remember the sirens went on. I was so scared because I was thinking “bombs”. I remember my mum took me and we went to the basement, I don’t know how long we’d been sitting there, I think it was until the sirens went off. Afterwards, I remember mum, my uncle, my uncle’s wife, we took the car and then we were driving to Germany. We left everything – the house, the little shop with the food they had, they left it. They took one bag and ‘let’s go to Germany’.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/feb/08/liverpool-dejan-lovren-refugee-bosnia-croatia-germany

Sad stuff. Horrible to think of those multiethnic communities breaking apart in such short order.

jones

arsedoc md wrote:
jones wrote:
Not an authority either but I've read a book or two about Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars.

which?

Mostly German books, I'd be surprised if there were translated versions. There's a book about Klaus Kinski by ex-BND (German CIA equivalent) agent Erich Schmidt-Eenbohm in which he recounts how German, Austrian and Italian intelligence officials were discussing back in 1981 who'd play what part when Yugoslavia would break up after Tito's death. Highly recommended reading if there's an English version around

By the way I haven't had the possibility yet to look up the books I said I would, will do as soon as I get the chance. Sorry about that mate

jones

Burnwinter wrote:
jones wrote:
Not an authority either but I've read a book or two about Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars.

What I knew reading the article is that a colleague of mine who is a Bosnian Serb refugee himself would have vehemently disagreed with it.

He would say that Serbia ended up carrying the can and becoming the bogeyman for quite deliberate strategic meddling by the US that led to the breakup of the former Yugoslavia along ethnic lines.

He escaped from near Srebrenica as a child and maintains that large numbers of ethnic Serbs were also massacred during the period and alongside the events that have become so infamous, including many family members. He's also pretty nostalgic for the Tito era: think he gets that from his dad

We might have the same acquaintance 😆 Seriously though, that's pretty much every Yugoslavian in existence you're describing there.

My mate is Bosnian Serb as well and he's saying the same, except that it's not just the US but all of the NATO (not just as an extension of US interests in this case) or Western Europe that had an interest in Yugoslavia breaking up. I wouldn't trust all that he says as he's certain to trust in some dodgy sources but overall this version is a lot closer to the truth than "Milosevic provoked some republics to secede"

Bold Tone

Trump's ogreish ways stand up on their own without the need for fake props.
It is counter-productive to jump into the gutter of fake-news mud slinging as, to paraphrase Mark Twain, Trump's side wins by experience.
While you are trying to plug the holes in your argument, the Trump bus moves on to the next victim with you parked next to a telegraph pole by the side of a cliff.

arsedocmd

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2017/02/08/olympic-fencer-ibtihaj-muhammad-held-us-customs-trump-travel-ban/97676170/

goon

You literally cannot go a single day without reading a ridiculous story relating to Trump and/or his administration. We're only 3 weeks in and his presidency has already become a parody of itself.

Rex

Problem is that there are multiple controversies on a pretty much daily basis; there is a lot of important and outrageous stuff that sort of flies under the radar because of it, and Trump and the Republicans are getting away with murder.

Bold Tone

They may be bad but they are good at being bad.
They set the media off on stupid stories like ivanka's clothes line and the donald's bathrobe while they push through devos and fill up news space that would have concentrated on elizabeth warren.

y va marquer

Devos was a big story though - she's only confirmed because of the historic tiebreaking vote from Pence and there were weeks of protests plus two defections from her own party.

Burnwinter

Just been reading about Bannon's unfilmed screenplay for a "trilogy" called The Islamic States of America:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bannon-film-outline-warned-us-could-turn-into-islamic-states-of-america/2017/02/03/f73832f4-e8be-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?postshare=3261486134995109&tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.bd4819890b11

Yep, he's on the National Security Council.

y va marquer

They lost their appeal.
Unanimous decision.

The stay on their ban remains in place.

Trump’s not giving up though.

"@realDonaldTrump

SEE YOU IN COURT, THE SECURITY OF OUR NATION IS AT STAKE!"

What a turd.

Bold Tone

Scott Pruitt being offered the epa department is another one.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603582/how-much-damage-could-scott-pruitt-really-do-at-epa/

[font=Arial Black]Trump's cabinet[/font]

Confirmed
James Mattis (Defense), John Kelly (Homeland Security), Rex Tillerson (State), Elaine Chao (Transportation), Nikki Haley (United Nations), Betsy DeVos (Education), Jeff Sessions (Attorney General)
Awaiting Senate approval
Wilbur Ross (Commerce), Rick Perry (Energy), Tom Price (Health and Human Services), Ben Carson (Housing and Urban Development), Ryan Zinke (Interior), Steve Mnuchin (Treasury), Linda McMahon (Small Business Association), Sonny Perdue (Agriculture), Andrew Puzder (Labor), David Shulkin (Veterans Affairs), Mick Mulvaney (Office of Management and Budget director), Robert Lighthizer (US trade representative), Scott Pruitt (Environmental Protection Agency)
Not yet announced
Council of Economic Advisers chair h h

Qwiss

Is there anyway the dems could filibuster long enough to keep Gorsuch out until the next midterms? How quickly could Congress Republicans and Trump put through a rule change to get rid of the filibuster?

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Is there anyway the dems could filibuster long enough to keep Gorsuch out until the next midterms? How quickly could Congress Republicans and Trump put through a rule change to get rid of the filibuster?

They'd do this pretty quickly. It's futile. They should rather save it for when a liberal judge retires, and they need to motivate for the Republican president to move towards a judge who is more acceptable to the left.

The thing with Gorsuch is that he's replacing a conservative mainstay, and would normally breeze through the process 80-20 anyway given his incredible credentials. If they compromise the filibuster now, they will regret it when Trump forces down another judge in a few years.

y va marquer

The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals said it would not block a lower-court ruling that brought the president's executive order to a halt.

Mr Trump made the order because he said national security was at risk.

But in its ruling, the court said there was insufficient evidence of a terror threat from these countries.

"The government has pointed to no evidence that any alien from any of the countries named in the Order has perpetrated a terrorist attack in the United States," it said.

"Rather than present evidence to explain the need for the executive order, the government has taken the position that we must not review its decision at all," said the ruling. "We disagree, as explained above.''

Words of beautiful clear reason - how will the masters of incoherence and irrationality cope?
What lunatic spin will they put on this judgement?

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