Trumpism: Page 13 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Trumpism

goon

y va marquer wrote:
goon wrote:
Nothing you, I or he says is going to help the situation but that's irrelevant anyway, it's a commentary. If you're endorsing a man like Trump it's a pretty poor reflection of yourself as an individual.

It most certainly is not irrelevant.
If you think creating even more seperateness, division and conflict is the way forward then you are wrong.
I would vehemently argue reasons for not voting Trump but I'm not going to sit here thinking that I'm morally superior to 60,000,000 individual people who voted for him or assume that a Trump voter is a monster or a specific type of person.
The easy acceptance of the myth of the Trump voter being unlike us decent good people on here is scary.
It's EXACTLY the kind of thinking that leads to racism and discrimination against people.
The kind of thinking that Trump thrives on.

So how do you think a person of good moral conciounse justifies backing a man who bragged about sexual assault, mocked the disabled... hell im sure I don't need to give you the full list. How is it justified if you're not at the very least indifferent to these things? Would you be friends with someone who held those kids of views?

These people may not be monsters but Trump is and they've willingly handed him the keys to their future. I don't see any point in debating whether or not a culture of ignorance exists within America but instead focusing on why that culture exists and ensure it's not one inherited by future generations. I don't however think there's anything that can be done about the current one.

Qwiss

goon wrote:
So how do you think a person of good moral conciounse justifies backing a man who bragged about sexual assault, mocked the disabled...

How does anyone vote at all in the US when their leader will murder tens or even hundreds of thousands of people in other countries? If you have to pass that barrier to vote how does anything else really matter at all beyond your own welfare?

flobaba

Anti elitism, nationalism, all them other isms.

So the truth is you had two terrible options: Hillary was no saint either. Plus the Russian propaganda machine did her no favors. The past elections for the most part wasn't about who people liked, but who they disliked less. Who they could tolerate. And you may not realize how badly Hillary was demonized with her email issues and the leaks and fake news and whatnot.

The deep level of distrust/distaste/disgust you have against Trump is the same way Trump voters view Hillary.

y va marquer

goon wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
It most certainly is not irrelevant.
If you think creating even more seperateness, division and conflict is the way forward then you are wrong.
I would vehemently argue reasons for not voting Trump but I'm not going to sit here thinking that I'm morally superior to 60,000,000 individual people who voted for him or assume that a Trump voter is a monster or a specific type of person.
The easy acceptance of the myth of the Trump voter being unlike us decent good people on here is scary.
It's EXACTLY the kind of thinking that leads to racism and discrimination against people.
The kind of thinking that Trump thrives on.

So how do you think a person of good moral conciounse justifies backing a man who bragged about sexual assault, mocked the disabled... hell im sure I don't need to give you the full list. How is it justified if you're not at the very least indifferent to these things? Would you be friends with someone who held those kids of views?

These people may not be monsters but Trump is and they've willingly handed him the keys to their future. I don't see any point in debating whether or not a culture of ignorance exists within America but instead focusing on why that culture exists and ensure it's not one inherited by future generations. I don't however think there's anything that can be done about the current one.

A culture of ignorance exists also in relation to America and Americans.

You guys voted for Brexit and have a PM who echoes Trump in relation to immigration - does that mean all Brexiters are ignorant, racists?

As for the person of good moral conscience voting for Trump I already touched on that in one of my answers to you

"I've thought about it a lot, particularly about why any woman could vote for him after hearing his private thoughts laid bare.

The only conclusions that I come to is that a large percentage of those women see that kind of treatment as normal (which is disturbing) or that many just don't take what he said as being serious, they fell for the harmless "locker room banter" spiel."

They don't see him as you or I do.
For example the fundamental Christians who voted most likely did so because of his stance on abortion and would see Hilary as the anti- Christ for her views on same.
Now whether you view fundamental Christians as morally bankrupt or not is up to you - the point is for some people who see themselves as morally informed Trump was the better option.

I genuinely see it as dangerous thinking to start classing people and who they are solely based on who they voted for.

And this is from someone who can't even bear to look at Trump

goon

Fair enough y, you're probably right. Generalisations are never a good thing.

Rex

A friend of mine, an American living in Sweden for the last 6 years or so, is very firm in his belief that primary and secondary school in the US makes it very difficult for Americans to do critical thinking. His words are "authoritarian propaganda imprinting. Young minds are manipulated through hegemony within education and the world views of most Americans are lacking critical 'fact-checking' abilities and lack the faculties necessary to see the bigger picture, think out of the box, and question what they have been told. Most Americans have no fucking clue how ignorant, naive and narrow minded they are. Even some very intelligent people."

What do you think of that one? 🙂
Then again, he is struggling with coming to terms with family members who voted for Trump...

speedy

Rex wrote:
A friend of mine, an American living in Sweden for the last 6 years or so, is very firm in his belief that primary and secondary school in the US makes it very difficult for Americans to do critical thinking. His words are "authoritarian propaganda imprinting. Young minds are manipulated through hegemony within education and the world views of most Americans are lacking critical 'fact-checking' abilities and lack the faculties necessary to see the bigger picture, think out of the box, and question what they have been told. Most Americans have no fucking clue how ignorant, naive and narrow minded they are. Even some very intelligent people."

What do you think of that one? 🙂
Then again, he is struggling with coming to terms with family members who voted for Trump...

Sweden is light years ahead, we ran into some swedish lads all about 18 in a bar in berlin sounds dodge but it wasnt like that. And they new more about politics in britan than 98% of the population here. And that was 2 or 3 years ago before the vote put britans politics on the global agenda.
While I cant give an accurate acount of US education, I'd guess the UK is probably a step down the ladder from the US.

I have a mother in law who's irish but moved to UK as a kid(schooled here). I'm Irish and living in the UK and she(the mother in law) voted for brexit and sat their telling me that the UK shouldn't let all these EU immigrants in to steal her tax money. Without for a second considering herself or me an EU immigrant.

I've ment a girl who writes the news for the bbc and kept reffering to ireland as "southern ireland" eventually I explained that Ireland is a country and northern ireland is a country but southern ireland isn't. She was like sh** I can think of 3 times I've wrote that for the news guy to read. So she said she'd put a note in the bbc reports to stop using southern ireland as the the name for Ireland. How can you live in england and not know what Irealnd is called? And b employeed writing the news with copy checkers ect and nobody has a clue.

I tried to open a bank account when i first moved over, their was me and another irish lad. They said come back with more bills ect. So we came back with everything they asked. And they asked for more. Next time they said the system was down. Next time they said come back and you see "karen" I said there seems to be problem and you've messed us about why not explain the problem and lets try and solve it. She replied you're not coming up on our system. You've all these real looking documents but we cant find you, "do you know ireland isnt part of the UK? If your system only searches the UK youre not going to find us". She replied oh really ? that explains it we thought you were setting up fake accounts to fund terrorism. Weve had meetings with the manager and area manager ans the guys above him to try work out why you werent showing on our system. We just didnt know irealnd wasnt part of the UK.

I'm going to refrain from saying anything to harsh, but the world is full of people educated by instagram instead of books.

Daz

Rex wrote:
A friend of mine, an American living in Sweden for the last 6 years or so, is very firm in his belief that primary and secondary school in the US makes it very difficult for Americans to do critical thinking. His words are "authoritarian propaganda imprinting. Young minds are manipulated through hegemony within education and the world views of most Americans are lacking critical 'fact-checking' abilities and lack the faculties necessary to see the bigger picture, think out of the box, and question what they have been told. Most Americans have no fucking clue how ignorant, naive and narrow minded they are. Even some very intelligent people."

What do you think of that one? 🙂
Then again, he is struggling with coming to terms with family members who voted for Trump...

As someone who works in tertiary education in Australia, I can say with some confidence that this is definitely not just an American problem.

Qwiss

Rex wrote:
A friend of mine, an American living in Sweden for the last 6 years or so, is very firm in his belief that primary and secondary school in the US makes it very difficult for Americans to do critical thinking. His words are "authoritarian propaganda imprinting. Young minds are manipulated through hegemony within education and the world views of most Americans are lacking critical 'fact-checking' abilities and lack the faculties necessary to see the bigger picture, think out of the box, and question what they have been told. Most Americans have no fucking clue how ignorant, naive and narrow minded they are. Even some very intelligent people."

What do you think of that one? 🙂
Then again, he is struggling with coming to terms with family members who voted for Trump...

The pledge of allegiance isn't talked about enough. The way kids recite that every day in school is mental. And then we wonder how an uber nationalist can become president?

arsedocmd

Qwiss! wrote:
The pledge of allegiance isn't talked about enough. The way kids recite that every day in school is mental. And then we wonder how an uber nationalist can become president?

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/national-anthem-national-flag-supreme-court-theater-4402827/

story-topped ...i think. Both crazy.

ElGeniodeOviedo

The real issue with Trump isn't that he is personally odious (which admittedly is distressing) but rather that his political platform is odious. It seems pretty cut-and-dry that you would have to vote for Trump in a thought experiment where you switch his politics with Clinton's under a general ethical schema where voters select the candidate that will do the most good and least evil. So that explains the seemingly vexing existence of the principled "Trump voter", given that these voters actually believe Trump's platform is more moral than his opponent's.

As for how a person could view Trump's policy preferences as moral, and relatedly whether every Trump voter is immoral, will take a more developed view than I willing to get into at the present moment, though I may return to it

Claudius

I'm impressed by Trump. His first week was a marketing masterpiece. He really made it appear that he had done a lot of work by signing a few documents and mouthing off about voter fraud. One of the criticisms of Barack is that he didn't understand this side of the game. He didn't make as much noise as he should've about many of accomplishments - strengthening the Detroit auto industry, introducing health insurance to a wider set of Americans, growing jobs, killing Bin Laden, giving Americans tax relief, etc. Some of these (the tax) were never even advertised.

Even if he inspires a recession, Donald will be seen by his followers to have trumped Obama on jobs just because of the optics - meeting with CEOs and making threats at individual companies moving their operations offshore.

This branding is what he has done well his whole career. If I told you that Donald Trump is the richest real estate mogul in America, you'd probably believe it because he's so out there. The media and an undiscerning American public will have their work cut out from them sieving the actual progress from the illusion of impact.

flobaba

Claudius wrote:
I'm impressed by Trump. His first week was a marketing masterpiece. He really made it appear that he had done a lot of work by signing a few documents and mouthing off about voter fraud. One of the criticisms of Barack is that he didn't understand this side of the game. He didn't make as much noise as he should've about many of accomplishments - strengthening the Detroit auto industry, introducing health insurance to a wider set of Americans, growing jobs, killing Bin Laden, giving Americans tax relief, etc. Some of these (the tax) were never even advertised.

Even if he inspires a recession, Donald will be seen by his followers to have trumped Obama on jobs just because of the optics - meeting with CEOs and making threats at individual companies moving their operations offshore.

This branding is what he has done well his whole career. If I told you that Donald Trump is the richest real estate mogul in America, you'd probably believe it because he's so out there. The media and an undiscerning American public will have their work cut out from them sieving the actual progress from the illusion of impact.

No.

There are facts and there are alt facts. Regardless of what Trump will have the gullible believe, a President's record in terms of what he actually achieves will speak for itself. Waiting till the end of his term to pass judgement on the sum total.

One thing I do know, these are the hardest times to be non white in America in a looooong time. Talk less of the crime of being a Muslim.

Claudius

I'm not so sure, Flob. If you combine his marketing intellect with his propensity to just outright lie, it is easy to expect that many of his followers will buy into his success story.

flobaba

Oh his followers will support whatever he says or does regardless. That's how come he's in power in the first place.

It's the rest of the country that needs convincing

Klaus

flobaba wrote:
No.

There are facts and there are alt facts. Regardless of what Trump will have the gullible believe, a President's record in terms of what he actually achieves will speak for itself.

If that was really the case then Reagan would have been discredited by history. Instead he's been the golden idol for the republican party ever since.

y va marquer

goon

Muslim travellers turned away from US borders after Donald Trump bans citizens of seven countries - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/Au38XfpoLTUCbt_eVsrWSjQ

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38781420

I don't think this is fake...

flobaba

This is racism, isn't it? State sponsored racism.

I can't imagine what it must feel like to be a Muslim in this country. The fear, the anger, the helplessness.

Shame on you America. Shame on you.

I find myself, suddenly, so sad.

GooneriC

Land of the free.

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