NLD - Arsenal v Tottenham - Sunday at noon: Page 23 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

NLD - Arsenal v Tottenham - Sunday at noon

Clrnc

Lukazan wrote:
I wish. Ramsey really would then be the best midfielder in the league.

Either way we look a better team when Cazorla is on the field.

A couple of Orbinho's stat recently backed that up. Over 2 years it's pretty conclusive.

Giroud vs Theo is pretty interesting too.

yuv

Rex wrote:
So Cazorla is now, by some, elevated to near the second coming of Christ status. Injury does indeed do great things to the actual level of players.

You and I were always seeing him differently. That's not new. And I kept saying the same thing about Santi the entire time, even when it looked odd to most. But I think it doesn't look that strange any more - we don't play the same without him, and despite his lack of defensive ability, he seems a must have at this time.

Qwiss

yuv wrote:
Rex wrote:
So Cazorla is now, by some, elevated to near the second coming of Christ status. Injury does indeed do great things to the actual level of players.

You and I were always seeing him differently. That's not new. And I kept saying the same thing about Santi the entire time, even when it looked odd to most. But I think it doesn't look that strange any more - we don't play the same without him, and despite his lack of defensive ability, he seems a must have at this time.

Our problems started before Santis injury.

Bold Tone

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert wrote:
Are there any youngsters at the club who will be able to do "the Cazorla role" properly in the future? Ideally someone as ambidextrous as he is as well.

Does Zelalem fit this profile?

Nope.
We simply have to set up and play differently.
A simple change could be Ozil dropping back to play as a creator rather than trying to be on the end of crosses that never arrive when Cazorla is out.
When Giroud is up front, we cannot play Ramsey and Ox together as he ends up being starved of crosses.

Qwiss

Ramsey needs to be in the centre until Cazorla comes back. We can reassess then but right now there is no real competition for him. We need some drive from midfield.

General

We have enough options in midfield. Ramsey doesn't need to be in midfield and we certainly don't need him there. Either play him out wide or sit him on the bench. He's played his best for Wales in the free role where his carelessness in possession and poor positional discipline have little effect. Wenger have him the creative role away to Man U last season and it was a disaster. He gave us no possession stability and just as it looked like we were getting back in the game we lost the midfield. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of that poor setup next weekend.

yuv

I tend to agree with Qwiss, but there's no magic universal formula. We need Aaron's drive forward, even if he's not super sharp (his effect vs spurs was visible, though he's still not in form). It also depends on his form on the day, and on opposition.
Looks to me like Ramsey and Xhaka behind Ozil is a good option, but a bit soft vs top teams (wouldn't play Utd like this, eg.). And when he's not playing well, Neny is a good sub (matches him for movement, though not for drive forward). And Xhaka's passes are needed (he's the best replacement for Santi in that respect, and better than Santi defensively, though sometimes his positioning is off). I also think Xhaka will improve with each game, and can be very valuable towards the latter part of the season.
This does leave Coq out, which is strange... but he's right back in there when more defensive stability is needed, and obviously as Santi's partner when he's back.

Bold Tone

That formation solves one but opens up other problems.
Ramsey has yet to click with Alexis or Giroud so we end up playing park football requiring individual efforts.

Klaus

I think Ramsey and Elneny/Xhaka would make a pretty good midfield. They could use an extra body tucked in from the wing if we're playing against extraordinary opposition but it's not like that most ancient of tactics telegraphs an inherent weakness in the setup. People like Ferguson had their teams play that way for almost 30 years, and he did it back when Keane was a fixture in midfield for him too. What we can't affort to waste more time on is unholy combinations like Xhaka/Coquelin.

Jed

Xhaka and Coquelin looked awful against Tottnumb.

Can't play the two together unless we are closing up shop trying to protect a lead or if we're playing a real top team away.

jones

Everybody looked awful against Tottenham, Coquelin was easily one of our better performers on that day. I think that combination has something to it (on paper at least) as soon as Xhaka settles a bit more, Coquelin as the mobile ball winner with Xhaka distributing it from deeper.

Agree with yuv, Cazorla is still our first CM on the team sheet. I don't think Ramsey will ever reproduce that 13/14 form so I think the only way he'll work is in a three man midfield or on the wing, his good performance in France only reiterated that point for me

Klaus

If we're protecting a lead I'd rather have Coq and Elneny on the pitch. Xhaka just doesn't look comfortable under pressure to me, which seems to be why his midfield partner has to press so high up the field. Coquelin has his uses, but asking him to do something constructive with the ball once he has won it in an attacking zone is not one of them. That's why we should try Ramsey next to Xhaka instead as soon as possible (and if that doesn't work - bench Xhaka and try Elneny for an extended run).

It's a shame we couldn't have a proper preseason this year to figure out all this stuff, but this is where we're at.

jones

He was pretty pressing resistent during his time in Gladbach to be fair and used his body a lot better to shield the ball, think he'll improve on that here after some time. Easy to forget but Xhaka is not only new to the league but also the youngest of all of our CMs.

Feels like ages since we've had a real preseason. No tourney coming around next summer (unless there's another anniversary version of the Copa) but I'm confident we'll somehow find a way to fuck it up and field Jenkinson and Craig Eastmond come next August

Klaus

Yeah. I miss the training camp in Austria. It might have been unsustainable when everyone else started doing tours but it gave us a chance to prepare and weed out some players who blatantly shouldn't be here. I just don't get why Jenkinson is running around on the pitch again.

Re: Xhaka and Mönchengladbach, I think there's generally less pressure in German football. It's a persistent thing I've noticed. Per spoke about it too when he arrived here. I think that's the main problem with Xhaka at the moment. It's probably also why he gets left behind a little bit when he's defending. It's something I expect he'll grow into with a season or two under his belt; he has the right mentality and the right skillset to excel for sure. That being said I would have liked to see Elneny given a few more chances at this stage.

Clrnc

Klaus wrote:
If we're protecting a lead I'd rather have Coq and Elneny on the pitch. Xhaka just doesn't look comfortable under pressure to me, which seems to be why his midfield partner has to press so high up the field. Coquelin has his uses, but asking him to do something constructive with the ball once he has won it in an attacking zone is not one of them. That's why we should try Ramsey next to Xhaka instead as soon as possible (and if that doesn't work - bench Xhaka and try Elneny for an extended run).

It's a shame we couldn't have a proper preseason this year to figure out all this stuff, but this is where we're at.

Pretty much. That's one of the first things I noticed of Xhaka when you observe him in France about losing the ball under pressure.

Thing about Coquelin is, he is very effective in hassling and winning the ball. He also has pace to burn when covering our defenders. Ramsey is always beaten too easily in those 50-50 challenges and then struggle to recover.

Elneny and Ramsey could work though. Both very similar energies and Elneny has the composure that Ramsey don't.

lorddulaarsenal

Elneny Ramsey would be interesting

flobaba

Wenger is no fool. He sees these players more often than we do. He knows what they can do, and he knows what he expects of them, and he picks them accordingly. We have options now, and I trust that he is able to make the right decisions about who starts/comes off the bench and who doesn't.

General

Xhaka's best is yet to come. He is playing no where near his potential and typically some are too quick to write him off.

AAStyle

I believe that it would be a terrible mistake to drop Coquelin. He's the nearest thing to Kante in the EPL.
Guy is playing well and Xhaka cannot cover his role (DM - ballwinner)

Bold Tone

Cazorla always sticks close to Coquelin and picks up the loose balls and uses his quick feet/dribbling skills to get free and pass the ball before the opposition defence is set. This is a partnership unlike Xhaka and Elneny who are always too far away waiting for Coquelin to pick himself up from the floor and pass them the ball.

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