I guess this means bans for Jewish skull caps and Sikh turbans too. It's discriminating on religious grounds.

Ray wrote:

I guess this means bans for Jewish skull caps and Sikh turbans too. It's discriminating on religious grounds.

Yes and crosses on jewellery, etc

Segway wrote:

You wouldn't be bothered if your co-workers wore burqas?

Why would I be, exactly? And even more appropriately, why should it matter one bit how I feel about it? 

Please, do explain to me how your idea of what is appropriate applies broadly to all of humanity, I'm curious to know how you go about rationalizing your prejudices.

Gurgen wrote:

As Aboutaleb (current mayor of Rotterdam) said, wear a burqa if you want but don't complain about not being able to get a job and don't expect the state to provide for you.

What a pandering little bastard.

Jeez these are some terrible comparisons. There are practical issues with burqas (imagine if everyone wore an uidentifiable full body cape that also covered up the face - orwellian nightmare) aswell as moral issues. Imagine trying to converse with someone in a burqa... Oh wait that's the whole point with them. Ffs these terrible things have been forced upon women by insecure men with tiny dicks.

I don't think the solution is to let another group then dictate what women should and shouldn't wear though.

Lasting progress comes organically.

Segway wrote:

Jeez these are some terrible comparisons. There are practical issues with burqas (imagine if everyone wore an uidentifiable full body cape that also covered up the face - orwellian nightmare) aswell as moral issues. Imagine trying to converse with someone in a burqa... Oh wait that's the whole point with them. Ffs these terrible things have been forced upon women by insecure men with tiny dicks.

Segway with his big swinging dick smashing oppression of women one burka at a time.

The practical issues with it are valid in plenty of circumstances and it's something I can understand being restricted for practical reasons. But to ban it because you don't like it, disagree with it is no better than men with tiny dicks.

Mirth wrote:

I don't think the solution is to let another group then dictate what women should and shouldn't wear though.

Lasting progress comes organically.

Exactly. The full face veil is a fucking shitty thing for a religion to make a person wear but people get to follow that shitty rule if they want.

I can see instances where it becomes impractical for certain jobs however. I don't see how a simple head scarf becomes a problem though.

Mirth wrote:

I don't think the solution is to let another group then dictate what women should and shouldn't wear though.

Lasting progress comes organically.

Yep, this is the key. Any society that is serious about equal rights and democracy will have to allow people to choose for themselves, and then respect the choices they make. You can't counter abuse of human rights with more abuse of human rights. There are women in secular countries who still feel forced to cover themselves due to fear of persecution and/or retaliation, that's a sad reality. Also making them feel afraid to wear said clothes is not helping though. You're just getting them stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Obviously there are jobs in the public sector where you're required to show your face for the sake of accountability and transparency, particularly in law enforcement and such (if you thought cops couldn't get much scarier, imagine giving them a precedent for wearing face masks). But I don't think a handful of outlier examples are what people have in mind when they ban religious clothing.

But Islam (assuming that's the religion you mean) is itself torn on whether the veil is obligatory or even allowed at all. It's also pretty clear that the various traditions around the world all derive from pre-Islamic veiling and coverings. The Hadiths pretty categorically allow women to choose not to veil their face (and some even claim they prohibit veiling of married women, in particular). In all likelihood, the variety we see is due to Islam attempting to grapple with tribal customs of Arabs and others during conquest.

I mean, even Christian brides are veiled until the marriage ceremony is at its end. It's symbolic of pagan traditions that grew organically out of a combination of patriarchal systems, circumstances of environment, and in some ways, it is considered "protective" in that it may have been part of early efforts to reduce sexual violence in tribal society.

I'm not saying it's a great thing to wear niqab, I'm just saying this is a heavily nuanced issue that should categorically not be legislated for. I mean, I don't understand why people aren't up in arms about public decency laws if they are so concerned with a veil. What is indecent is a highly subjective thing. To walk around without a veil, for some people, is to walk around without a shirt, or even pants. It feels the same, and its an individuals prerogative to dress in a manner that feels decent to them.

I agree with you completely Klaus but one little on the police, I actually think it's useful if you have a lot of people in your community in full face veil to have a few cops like that too.

Ah men debating what women should and should not be allowed wear.

If women are obliged, by the dictates of their religion, to wear any specific scarves or veils then they are denied a personal freedom.

If by choice women wear scarves or veils because they choose to observe the practice that's fine - but it's difficult to ascertain just when it's an actual choice or whether the practice is observed out of fear.

It's cruel to force women to wear head or face coverings, it's just as cruel to force women to remove these coverings and put them in a situation where they are in conflict with the law if they continue to wear them at work.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/sep/20/how-many-wear-niqab-uk

We contacted the General Medical Council and then the Royal College of Nursing and then the National Union of Teachers. Each media team told us the same: that they didn't collect numbers on niqab wearing professionals and that to the best of their knowledge there had never been a case where niqab was mentioned as an issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/08/19/germanys-potential-burqa-ban-has-a-problem-where-are-the-burqas/?utm_term=.cd695be7ada8

Islamic experts told him they doubt there are any burqas in Germany. Even the staff from Afghan Embassy told him they've never seen one. Prominent anti-burqa campaigners seemed unable to help him either; some wouldn't even talk to him. After all his research, Köhler came to the conclusion that there might be around 300 wearers of the niqab in Germany. He has found no evidence of anyone wearing a burqa in Germany.

It's estimated that there are more than 4.7 million Muslims in Germany. If it's true that only a few hundred wear the burqa or the niqab, they represent a tiny fraction of that population: Around 0.01 percent. Their fervent critics almost certainly outnumber them. "The good news of this research: There are no women in Germany who have to wear the burqa," Köhler wrote. "The bad news: There are a lot of burqa opponents out there, unfortunately."

I guess we should judge as to whether it is an urgent priority that a tiny proportion of Muslim women wearing the niqab or burqa in the west be forced to stop.

Certainly announcing such a ban would be a cheap gesture for a politician as the cost of implementation would be near zero, and it would probably only ever hit one or two test cases in court.

If governments gave a fuck about the oppression of women, they would heavily fund women's support services and refuges for the far greater percentage of women of all faiths who are subject to DV or partner abuse.

If governments gave a fuck about the security of their citizens, they would forcefully address the root causes of everyday criminality in poverty and drug addiction. 

If you're quoting research on this BW why is there no information gathered from any surveys conducted with women of Islamic faith in Germany?
Surveys thar actually  engaged with  women and asked them their thoughts on the subject?
What I see in this article is a series of men who have made judgements prior to carrying out any serious genuine research.
Sending a call out on twitter to ask people if they'd seen anyone wearing a burqa is now some kind of standard in terms of gathering information to be treated seriously?

I've only ever seen one lady wearing a burqa in Cork, I wanted to talk to her to understand what it would feel like to wear one and how it influenced her experience of life.
I thought it would be rude to impose myself upon her though.

I think a ban on the burqa is completely unnecessary, counterproductive  and most importantly cruel but I think the discussion on here demonstrates just how superficial the debate is when it's spoken about in terms of numbers and is based on the  perception of people who do not wear these coverings, either voluntarily or involuntarily, and seem interested only in using information to support bias. 

Firstly, I've made several contributions in this thread and have never relied on numerical arguments. I bring them up now because I wonder "why the hell is the west so obsessed with this question?" 

I think a burqa or headscarf ban is a completely wrong policy independent of that. 

And I'm not quoting "research" I'm quoting the top hits on Google for "how many women wear a niqab?" … if you want research, get Pep to pay me.

I agree that the voices of women should be foregrounded and listened to when discussing the rights and status of women. I'm also against "whataboutery" in general.

I disagree that it is superficial to suggest that propelling a debate about the rights of women in relation to a mode of dress adopted by a tiny minority of women, a debate that laterally feeds anti-migrant racism, could be set aside in favour of addressing issues that affect millions of women. 

It seems like the opposite of superficial to point that out. 

If the anecdotal values in those reports are anywhere near accurate, there are about as many members of OMITT as there are women wearing niqab in Germany.

If it is important to consult Muslim women about religious dress, there are a lot of interviews and statements out there that above all else reveal that attitudes to hijab, niqab and burqa among them are as nuanced and multivalent as it gets, and that the view that all Islamic religious dress "oppresses" Muslimahs is cloddish and patronising.

I haven't read any survey results or statistical analysis on these topics.