Ozil contract talks: Page 10 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Ozil contract talks

MistaT

Gazza M wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
I think fundamentally out players know they don't have what it takes as a collective, which leads to these episodes

i've had similar thoughts in the last few years. modern professionals know deep down know when their team is the real deal, and are willing to fight more when they believe in their team. the current group talk a good game every season, but perhaps privately don't believe in wenger's tactics or trust that the bloke next to them is going to lay down over barbed wire for the cause

Teams are more willing to fight when they're equipped to hit realistic goals, even if those goals shift through a season. Leicester is a good example in that they fought all of last year though I'm sure only in the last month did they truly believe (deep down if you may) that they were the real deal.

As for those who wouldn't lay down for the cause, I look at all of our defense and see them willing to. Sanchez, Coquelin and Ramsey as well, though Ramsey may irk some, and so who does that leave us with? Ozil, Xhaka and Iwobi/Chamberlain?

All this to say I think its more likely the player's are questioning and not responding to Wenger and the club's ambition (to just float on by while making a profit).

y va marquer

So the signing of several players last summer and a run of results that had us toe to toe with Chelsea for top spot make it more likely that the players are questioning and not responding to Wenger as opposed to them not believing that they are the real deal?

I think it more likely that our issues stem from losing Cazorla's skill, vision and creativity and being forced to rely on new players who are not yet integrated or at the same leve - they don't have the same relationship with the attacking players ahead of them and we are consequently less consistent and fluid in attack.

That's now been compounded as a problem by losing Mustafi and the consistency of his partnership with Kos.
Away against decent sides like Everton and good sides like City we are not dangerous enough in attack to afford ourselves the luxury of conceding.

Gazza M

y va marquer wrote:
"Modern professionals" know deep down if their team is the real deal?
What sets them apart from previous generations that they have this sense about whether or not the team in which they are playing is capable of winning the league?

i don't know if you've played a team sport, but after you've spent years training and playing together as a group, you get to know what your teammates are and are not capable of in terms of effort and quality. when your gut tells things will go wrong, and they then repeatedly do in the exact same manner year upon year, it does quash the willingness to fight. these guys are still human beings, and we're in an era where they're more sensitive than ever

less said about the 'unbeaten run' the better. many performances were average and we got lucky on a number of occasions, a fact that wouldn't escape members of the team

@[deleted] - as i said, either they privately don't believe in wenger or eachother. the trust in eachother doesn't only extend to effort, it also extends to them believing in the quality of their teammates. wenger's style is to be generally 'hands off' and let the players sort things out amongst themselves, so there is even more of an onus on the players to really believe in the ability and effort of their teammates. it's not something you can fake really, the truth comes out on the pitch. as for leicester, they can be used to end any arguement in football right now. they were an extreme outlier, and should be viewed as such

General

Mustafi's injury came at a particularly bad period for us. Coupled with Bellerin returning from injury and lacking match practice and Gabriel's unpredictability, it's completely unsettled our back line. Football is all about results and naturally these issues are ignored. The warning signs were there though before Mustafi's injury that we were too open in midfield. PSG and Boro at home in particular gave us warning signs and we simply didn't heed to them.

y va marquer

Gazza M wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
"Modern professionals" know deep down if their team is the real deal?
What sets them apart from previous generations that they have this sense about whether or not the team in which they are playing is capable of winning the league?

i don't know if you've played a team sport, but after you've spent years training and playing together as a group, you get to know what your teammates are and are not capable of in terms of effort and quality. when your gut tells things will go wrong, and they then repeatedly do in the exact same manner year upon year, it does quash the willingness to fight.

less said about the 'unbeaten run' the better. many performance were average and we got lucky on a number of occasions, a fact that wouldn't escape members of the team

@[deleted] - as i said, either they privately don't believe in wenger or eachother. the trust in eachother doesn't only extend to effort, it also extends to them believing in the quality of their teammates. wenger's style is to be generally 'hands off' and let the players sort things out amongst themselves, so there is even more of an onus on the players to really believe in the ability and effort of their teammates. it's not something you can fake really, the truth comes out on the pitch

Didn't answer the question that I asked but it's generated yet another: the team that we played versus Everton and City have not spent years training and playing together as a group so how can they have this gut instinct in relation to "things" going wrong and to what the the newer additions to the team were capable of in terms of effort and quality?

And why exactly would they be feeling this after we'd taken the lead versus Everton?

That theory describes to me a team whose better players are incapable of dealing with setbacks - paranoid, pessimistic, unwilling to take responsibility and happy to blame team mates for all that goes wrong.
Actually the blaming others part does describe the team ethic of the average millenial so maybe there is some truth in the theory 😆

Klaus

HomeSteak wrote:

Arshavin:

8709 minutes
31 goals
46 assists

Ozil:

11650 minutes
29 goals
49 assists

I know stats are just meaningless out of context and shit...but still.

I looked through the ESPN statistics (http://www.espnfc.com/player/22873/andrey-arshavin) and counted 30 goals and 38 assists for Arshavin. 3 goals and 8 of those assists were in the league cup.

Arshavin was effective for us but he was incredibly frustrating too. People need to take into account that he rarely played full games because he wasn't good enough to start regularly anymore after two seasons, and when he did he usually had to be subbed off because he was too fat to last the distance.

arsedocmd

much of that from the left too isn't it? when i think he was a number 10 guy himself. And was slaughtered constantly for not putting in enough defensively.

Clrnc

Klaus wrote:
HomeSteak wrote:
I know stats are just meaningless out of context and shit...but still.

I looked through the ESPN statistics (http://www.espnfc.com/player/22873/andrey-arshavin) and counted 30 goals and 38 assists for Arshavin. 3 goals and 8 of those assists were in the league cup.

The stats Homesteak quoted was from Opta.

Klaus

Sure, I don't doubt they're accurate. I just think they take stuff like Emirates cup and club friendlies into account.

Clrnc

If they do, they will take into account for both players I suppose.

Klaus

You'd think so, but the Özil stats were the same on ESPN.

My theory is that some newspaper included everything they could get their hands on for Arshavin to exaggerate a point.

jones

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mesut-ozil/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/35664

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/andrey-arshavin/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/15378

They're only listing competitive matches for both. As Clarence mentioned it's not really surprising because Arshavin even when past his peak was pure end product.

Daz

It's an interesting comparison. Both players with massive talent and pretty major flaws. Arshavin never really got a chance to play as a proper 10, and arguably Mesut hasn't really been provided with a setup that could get the most out of his talents (I'm thinking specifically about a striker who prefers to make intelligent runs in behind rather than dropping deep).

lorddulaarsenal

Arshavin was mint when in good shape

Daz

He was, but that didn't last very long.

General

There is an interview with Bellerin out there where he said a youth coach told him if he wants to succeed, he has to put in the hard work. He took this as his mantra and made it a point to run furthest than anyone in training. It's no coincidence that he's turned out to be one of the best right backs in the world at 21. Ozil and Iwobi in particular should take a leaf out of his book because they are not working hard enough on their application. Most top teams would've dropped Ozil by now.

Mirth

General wrote:
There is an interview with Bellerin out there where he said a youth coach told him if he wants to succeed, he has to put in the hard work. He took this as his mantra and made it a point to run furthest than anyone in training. It's no coincidence that he's turned out to be one of the best right backs in the world at 21. Ozil and Iwobi in particular should take a leaf out of his book because they are not working hard enough on their application. Most top teams would've dropped Ozil by now.

This isn't me excusing Ozil who has been ridiculously lazy in the past few games but for most attackers - like Iwobi - hard work isn't measured by distance covered. In that respect it's a lot easier for a fullback to prove that they're working hard if they can bomb up and down the flank. Iwobi's already made significant improvements in his game compared to this time last year so I would suggest that he is working hard.

General

My issue with Iwobi is that his application has gone backwards but I do think his work rate isn't great at the minute. Maybe the praise has gone into his head? Against City, the pace appeared to be too hard for him and he was caught ball watching a few times. We were wide open on the left and it was no coincidence that Wenger took the unusual step of making a sub on 65mins. I can see what you mean by full backs looking visibly hard working because they can bomb up and down the pitch but when you look at distance covered, it's actually the midfielders who tend to cover the most ground. Henderson and Barkley covered the most ground in the game yesterday and Flamini regularly topped the charts when he was half decent. I think Bellerin in blessed with a great engine and superior to a lot of our players in that he can maintain the tempo for 90mins. This clearly comes from hard work in training. The benchmark for Iwobi is Theo's work rate at the start of the season and he is no where near matching that at the moment. Might sound harsh but sometimes he looked like a youth player getting minutes at the end of a game.

Mirth

Henderson and Flamini are in different roles to Iwobi and Ozil. You may as well compare Coquelin and Xhaka to them.

I'm not saying Iwobi should be standing and waiting to receive the ball - he's not good enough to be that entitled - but most attacking midfielders/wide forwards have more of a license to pick and choose their moments to track back. It's the job of the central midfielders like Henderson and Flamini to win the ball back.

Also it's normal for young players like Iwobi to drop off when they start playing regularly in the first team, I've seen it happen to nearly all young players. The challenge is how they respond to it. A sample size of a few is fairly irrelevant when you consider the improvements he's made over the past year - I doubt his attitude changed that suddenly and that drastically.

General

Barkley certainly isn't in a different role. He's been average this season but you can't fault him for work rate. When you're under the cosh like we were against City you expect your wide men to help out and Iwobi certainly didn't cover himself in glory. I can excuse poor form but not poor work ethic. He's only made a few substitute appearances lately and you expected him to be one of the freshest out there. City kept probing the left flank and got in every time. When Wenger makes a sub earlier than 70mins you know something is fundamentally wrong. Once Ox came on, there was immediately at outlet on the left which we hadn't had all game. Iwobi certainly wasn't the only guilty party though and we know other senior members of the team didn't set a particulatly good example.

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