Champions League 16/17: Page 43 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Champions League 16/17

QuincyAbeyie

Ricky1985 wrote:
arsedoc md wrote:
Messi is still better.

Not even close in my opinion this season. I say that as someone that would always argue against anyone that said Ronaldo was on Messi's level previously. But the Argentinian has dropped a couple of levels for sure, whilst Ronaldo has gotten better.

He's the best goalscorer I've seen in my time watching football by a country mile.

What? Messi scores even more than Ronaldo this season, and in addition creates most of Barcelona's attacks.

Jed

Ronaldo is the LeBron James of football.

Clrnc

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
Not even close in my opinion this season. I say that as someone that would always argue against anyone that said Ronaldo was on Messi's level previously. But the Argentinian has dropped a couple of levels for sure, whilst Ronaldo has gotten better.

He's the best goalscorer I've seen in my time watching football by a country mile.

What? Messi scores even more than Ronaldo this season, and in addition creates most of Barcelona's attacks.

Messi only have about 13 goals more in the league and 1 goal more in the UCL despite lesser matches. He also doesn't take all their penalties to boost his stats.

Hard to argue with Ronaldo's big game goalscoring prowess though. He is a world class goal threat. Even if he doesn't have any all round game he will still score and score until he retires. Deadly.

Isco was phenomenal by the way. Absolutely top class. Every attack went through him and he didn't misplace any meaningful passes. Zidane is so underrated as a coach, his record is flawless.

TambourineMan

The Messi v Ronaldo compassion is always an easy one for me. Answer these two questions honestly and there should no doubt as to who is better.

Best goalscorers in the world:

Ronaldo
Messi (only just so, could be argued that he's better as he will most certainly end his career with significantly more goals but let's give this to Ronaldo)

Best playmaker in the world?

Messi
Yep, no one else even comes close.

That for me is where the argument ends. Take goals away from both players and Messi is still the best playmaker in the world and by some distance. Take goals away from Ronaldo's game and he's Nani.

Claudius

How about we take away Petr Cech's hands. What is he then?

TambourineMan

Claudius wrote:
How about we take away Petr Cech's hands. What is he then?

Hardly the same though is it?

There are a number of facets to an attacking players game. Remove any one of those facets and the quality of the player declines. With Messi if you take 90% of his 500 career goals out his game he would still be considered one of the best players of our generation. Would Ronaldo? Not exactly a difficult argument to follow.

flobaba

Take away Messi's dribbling ability and close control and he would be a bum too. He definitely wouldn't score half his goals, and his entire game would tank. I don't subscribe to this notion of removing a facet of a player's game and evaluating them as if it is somehow not interdependent/ related to other aspects of their game.

Pele would be a nothing player without his goals too. But he is a god instead.

Shady

Claudius wrote:
How about we take away Petr Cech's hands. What is he then?

😆

Jed

Tambourine Man wrote:
Take goals away from Ronaldo's game and he's Nani.

Take away goals from Messi's game and he's Ozil.

Not much difference in the end then.

TambourineMan

flobaba wrote:
Take away Messi's dribbling ability and close control and he would be a bum too. He definitely wouldn't score half his goals, and his entire game would tank. I don't subscribe to this notion of removing a facet of a player's game and evaluating them as if it is somehow not interdependent/ related to other aspects of their game.

Pele would be a nothing player without his goals too. But he is a god instead.

Messi would still score a ton of goals regardless as his anticipation is second to none. He reacts to balls in the box better than anyone in the world bar Ronaldo.

What makes Messi special is that you can watch a game where he doesn't score (Barca 5 - Madrid 0) and go wow he's the best player I've seen to watching him put four past us thinking the same thing. When Ronaldo isn't scoring he doesn't have that same effect which is why for me Messi will always be the superior player and by some distance.

TambourineMan

Jed wrote:
Tambourine Man wrote:
Take goals away from Ronaldo's game and he's Nani.

Take away goals from Messi's game and he's Ozil.

Not much difference in the end then.

You can't seriously watch Ozil and think that. Messi with zero goals in his game shits on Ozil from a great height. He'd be in the Iniesta tier of player, probably a little higher too and that is something.

HomeSteak

We are so far behind Real it's unreal. When are we ever gonna win the Champions League?

goon

Tambourine Man wrote:
Take goals away from Ronaldo's game and he's Nani.

That's like saying if you take away my posts, OMITT is basically a Facebook page.

flobaba

Tambourine Man wrote:
flobaba wrote:
Take away Messi's dribbling ability and close control and he would be a bum too. He definitely wouldn't score half his goals, and his entire game would tank. I don't subscribe to this notion of removing a facet of a player's game and evaluating them as if it is somehow not interdependent/ related to other aspects of their game.

Pele would be a nothing player without his goals too. But he is a god instead.

Messi would still score a ton of goals regardless as his anticipation is second to none. He reacts to balls in the box better than anyone in the world bar Ronaldo.

What makes Messi special is that you can watch a game where he doesn't score (Barca 5 - Madrid 0) and go wow he's the best player I've seen to watching him put four past us thinking the same thing. When Ronaldo isn't scoring he doesn't have that same effect which is why for me Messi will always be the superior player and by some distance.

My anticipation is pretty darn good too. In my head I reach every ball first...

You don't hear me though. Messi is super quick, has incredible close control and dribbling which is closely related to his quickness. Take that away and he loses a big chunk of his game. You won't think he's the best player you've seen when he keeps getting easily dispossessed or can't get to the ball first in 50:50 situations and dribble his way past 3 players before curling it in from 25 yards. It just won't be the same footballer.

TambourineMan

flobaba wrote:
Tambourine Man wrote:
Messi would still score a ton of goals regardless as his anticipation is second to none. He reacts to balls in the box better than anyone in the world bar Ronaldo.

What makes Messi special is that you can watch a game where he doesn't score (Barca 5 - Madrid 0) and go wow he's the best player I've seen to watching him put four past us thinking the same thing. When Ronaldo isn't scoring he doesn't have that same effect which is why for me Messi will always be the superior player and by some distance.

My anticipation is pretty darn good too. In my head I reach every ball first...

You don't hear me though. Messi is super quick, has incredible close control and dribbling which is closely related to his quickness. Take that away and he loses a big chunk of his game. You won't think he's the best player you've seen when he keeps getting easily dispossessed or can't get to the ball first in 50:50 situations and dribble his way past 3 players before curling it in from 25 yards. It just won't be the same footballer.

I don't disagree that he won't be the same footballer but consider that even without his close control and dribbling he'd still be the best passer in the world, probably the second best finisher in the world on top of being supremely quick both in mind and body. His game would be different and he'd model it on the strengths he has leftover and still score a ridiculous amount of goals as he becomes more of an out and out striker.

Mirth

Claudius wrote:
How about we take away Petr Cech's hands. What is he then?

Still better than Almunia.

jones

Ricky1985 wrote:
arsedoc md wrote:
Messi is still better.

Not even close in my opinion this season.

Spot on, it's not even close. Ronaldo is a terrific player and people are doing him a massive disservice when they compare him to Messi because all you end up doing is make him look worse than he is

jones

Clrnc wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
What? Messi scores even more than Ronaldo this season, and in addition creates most of Barcelona's attacks.

Isco was phenomenal by the way. Absolutely top class. Every attack went through him and he didn't misplace any meaningful passes. Zidane is so underrated as a coach, his record is flawless.

Disagree and Isco is the perfect example for that. He would never have played yesterday if it wasn't forced on Zidane, he'd have started a half fit Bale like he did vs Barcelona even though the Spaniard is the better fit for this side

Mirth

Ricky1985 wrote:
arsedoc md wrote:
Messi is still better.

Not even close in my opinion this season. I say that as someone that would always argue against anyone that said Ronaldo was on Messi's level previously. But the Argentinian has dropped a couple of levels for sure, whilst Ronaldo has gotten better.

He's the best goalscorer I've seen in my time watching football by a country mile.

Messi's currently miles ahead in La Liga top goal scorer and assist charts. Ronaldo on the other had is bossing the CL. It's pretty close when comparing overall performance.

Ray

Messi's scored more than Ronaldo in the CL too and La Liga this season, and it's not even close, he's scored 13 more. Not to mention Messi's all round game is better than Ronaldo's.

Messi's level has certainly dropped and yet he's still a level or two ahead.

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