UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 76 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

Mirth

goon wrote:
Daz wrote:
Labour moving to the 'centre' just gives you Ton(r)y Blair. Do you really think that's the best way of advancing legitimately progressive politics?
Left wing parties should focus their energies on understanding and addressing the fact that fear and insecurity is currently a more powerful force among the majority of citizens than notions of solidarity and social justice. They need to focus on properly and genuinely addressing that, not take the cowardly and convenient path of shifting to the centre.

Blair got elected 3 times and significantly reduced poverty by increasing welfare, spent a shitload on Education and the NHS and introduced the minimum wage. You want to change society, peoples views and get them on board, that's how you do it. Calling him a Tory is insane when you consider how much the poorest in society have suffered since the Tories came back into power.

Agreed, if you think living under Tony Blair's government is the same as living under the Tories over the past 10 years then that's half the problem. New Labour have a lot to answer for but they're not remotely the same thing.

Qwiss

Mirth wrote:
Was just reading that Boris Johnson has now pretty much won every election he's been involved in since 2001 including the Leave campaign, the London mayor elections, the leadership campaign, local consistuency and obviously this one. And he's been an outsider in someone of them. When you're faced with someone that ruthless, I genuinely fear that Labour won't be effective opposition unless they rally behind someone that the public can get behind.

Who is that though? Seems to me the Labour party is split now between socialists and middle class liberals. How do you reconcile those groups when they have completely different goals and interests?

Mirth

goon wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Was just reading that Boris Johnson has now pretty much won every election he's been involved in since 2001 including the Leave campaign, the London mayor elections, the leadership campaign, local consistuency and obviously this one. And he's been an outsider in someone of them. When you're faced with someone that ruthless, I genuinely fear that Labour won't be effective opposition unless they rally behind someone that the public can get behind.

He's manipulated the Brexit situation brilliantly, partially thanks to his willingness to plummet to whatever depths he needs to in order to get elected. But what does he do in 5 years? It's worth bearing in mind that a huge chunk of the Labour vote actually collapsed into the Brexit Party which will no longer exist.

This is what worries me. Doing things like spending on the NHS is all good and well but no one will vote for them over Labour on those sorts of issues, which suggests to me they're going to go back to targeting things like immigration again.

I think 5 years is a long time to make any guesses.

Firstly it depends on who Labour announce as their leader - certainly if Momentum have their say, it'll be another walk in the park. Secondly, I suspect the Tories will have to scrap austerity and get public services up to scratch since they're now reliant on the post industrial towns since I can't see any of the urban populations voting Tory for a while now. If they don't then they're even more idealogically bankrupt than I thought. Thirdly, it'll be 15 years of the Tory party - even if Tories were a moderate party people would be tired of them. Fourthly, they'll certainly lose seats being the incumbent but the Conservatives have a long way to fall before they stop being the largest party in Westminster.

Qwiss

Well the silver lining here is that hopefully Brexit can hurry up now and Fine Gael can stop using it as an excuse to not have an election here.

Mirth

Qwiss! wrote:
Well the silver lining here is that hopefully Brexit can hurry up now and Fine Gael can stop using it as an excuse to not have an election here.

Actually for all you guys in the EU, this is probably a good thing. The ERG have no power anymore and I'm hoping for less Rees-Mogg and a more competent cabinet, I suspect Brexit will be as smooth as it can be now. Which is to say, not that smooth but hopefully less of a clusterfuck.

goon

Yeah, wouldn't surprise me to see a softer Brexit now. Boris can control the narrative around it, it would certainly make things easier in negotiations. Anyone who goes against him will drift off into irrelevance like Farage has.

Qwiss

Well he has a mandate now and a majority. It should be pretty straight forward. Then again who knows with the way things have gone so far. At least without an election looming there should be less fear for their seats.

I see the SNP got a fair few more seats too. Should be interesting to see what happens around and independence vote for Scotland now. SF kept their seats and the DUP lost a couple but I don't see enough of a move there for a reunification vote at the moment. People will want to see what happens with the border and the NHS post Brexit.

Captain

Nothing wrong with Blair's labour, but personally think the centrist (which is really just 'soft' right) view is dead for the foreseeable.

Daz

Mirth wrote:
goon wrote:
Blair got elected 3 times and significantly reduced poverty by increasing welfare, spent a shitload on Education and the NHS and introduced the minimum wage. You want to change society, peoples views and get them on board, that's how you do it. Calling him a Tory is insane when you consider how much the poorest in society have suffered since the Tories came back into power.

Agreed, if you think living under Tony Blair's government is the same as living under the Tories over the past 10 years then that's half the problem. New Labour have a lot to answer for but they're not remotely the same thing.

Calling him a Tory is admittedly a bit flippant, but that wasn't the basis of my argument. Nor am I suggesting that it's not tangibly preferable to have a more centrist Labour government than a conservative one. This kind of reactionism always happens now when (varyingly) leftist parties get beaten in elections by right wing parties. The same thing happened here when Labor lost. My point is that anyone (and any party) actively committed to building support for genuinely progressive leftism should continue to focus on that, not retreat into centrism just for the sake of trying to win the next election (which happens increasingly rarely anyway).

jones

goon wrote:
Worst Labour result since 1920s

Fuck me. Corbyn was a big mistake.

The UK is a big mistake.

If there's anything to be "learnt" from this result its that social media still doesn't hold a candle to classic media. Does anyone believe the people really have an issue with Corbyns plans to nationalise key industries, increase public spending or raise taxes on corporations? If the middle man doesn't want you in you won't get in, and for most of the UK that middle man isn't some Blog online but still the Sun, Daily Mail etc

jones

Captain wrote:
Nothing wrong with Blair's labour

Tony Blair deserves to be hung.

Qwiss

If there was a real desire in the British public for more Blairism the Lib Dems wouldn't have lost seats.

KingslandBarge

Why was Corbyn a mistake to you goon(or anyone)? Did you want Torys out by any means to prevent regression in the UK? did you aspire for a true leftist political framework to heal the fabric of society and drive the country forwards? I know it doesn’t come down to those two choices but if it’s the former than he is a mistake, not if it’s the latter. And if it is the latter - what is defeat really to Corbyn ? It’s more indicative of the press, segments of the electorate and the contemporary nature of how information is consumed. These institutional structures have not allowed a leftist party to resonate in the modern era and I’m not sure Corbyn takes the blame for that.

This same fundamental question will come up in the US elections. Does one front a tactical counter relief to a populist far right candidate, or an authentic progressive? The choice is constrained

KingslandBarge

Qwiss! wrote:
If there was a real desire in the British public for more Blairism the Lib Dems wouldn't have lost seats.

Agree 100% - just that their previous bedding with the Tories stained them from being a genuine left centrist IMO

goon

He’s the wrong choice because he lost and it’s been obvious he’s going to lose for a long time. Not all leftist leaders are equal. There’s plenty of candidates on the centre left that would have done atrociously too. Pick someone who can be elected anywhere along the left scale, I can live with that for now. The coming generation will deliver the real change we need anyway.

Mirth

Qwiss! wrote:
If there was a real desire in the British public for more Blairism the Lib Dems wouldn't have lost seats.

Isn't that a bit simplistic?

Mirth

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
Worst Labour result since 1920s

Fuck me. Corbyn was a big mistake.

The UK is a big mistake.

If there's anything to be "learnt" from this result its that social media still doesn't hold a candle to classic media. Does anyone believe the people really have an issue with Corbyns plans to nationalise key industries, increase public spending or raise taxes on corporations? If the middle man doesn't want you in you won't get in, and for most of the UK that middle man isn't some Blog online but still the Sun, Daily Mail etc

I really don't buy that. That isn't to say they don't have a voice - they do - but you've granted them a disproportionate level of influence. You can just see the rise of Lib Dems (early 2010s), UKIP, Brexit and the SNP over the past decade to realise that parties have come about against what the establishment wanted. I could understand if it was a hung parliament or a close result but blaming labour worst result since 1935 on the Sun and the Daily Mail is way too convienent. I may as well blame the Russians or Skynet.

RocktheCasbah

Hard to put into words how I'm feeling this morning. I think 5 years of Johnson will be horrendous and the taking of Kensington, Grenfell and all, by the Tories leaves a bitter taste. But the warning signs were there - they just went unheeded. I can understand why some Labour voters turned away from the party, the antisemitism row, Brexit, the lack of engagement from Corbyn, but to hand Boris fucking Johnson a landslide?

I hope Labour learn from this and can build to a better future, but I'm not sure how it happens.

goon

And arguably the most relevant example is probably Labour in the 2017 GE.

This is quite telling.

I believe Brexit played a bigger role than that, but regardless almost half of traditional Labour voters simply didn’t like Corbyn.

JazzG

Daz wrote:
@[deleted]
Labour moving to the 'centre' just gives you Ton(r)y Blair. Do you really think that's the best way of advancing legitimately progressive politics?
Left wing parties should focus their energies on understanding and addressing the fact that fear and insecurity is currently a more powerful force among the majority of citizens than notions of solidarity and social justice. They need to focus on properly and genuinely addressing that, not take the cowardly and convenient path of shifting to the centre.

Blair is the only Labour leader who has won a general election for Labour since 1974. Apart from his fuck up with the wars he was a popular leader, which is why he won three elections.

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
Worst Labour result since 1920s

Fuck me. Corbyn was a big mistake.

The UK is a big mistake.

If there's anything to be "learnt" from this result its that social media still doesn't hold a candle to classic media. Does anyone believe the people really have an issue with Corbyns plans to nationalise key industries, increase public spending or raise taxes on corporations? If the middle man doesn't want you in you won't get in, and for most of the UK that middle man isn't some Blog online but still the Sun, Daily Mail etc

How can you say for sure that people don't have a problem with Corbyn's policies?

Mirth wrote:
Isn't that a bit simplistic?

Very, the Lib Dems despite what people on the left of Labour say are not a Blairite party. If anything apart from their Brexit policy I'm not sure what kind of party they are.

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