UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 46 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

y va marquer

He also said it was a "sincere effort to recognise the human suffering"
Human.
Common humanity.
What we have in common.

That from a man who many believe knew, but never handed over, the people responsible for Enniskillen

The Remembrance Day bombing (also known as theEnniskillen bombing or Poppy Day massacre[1][2]) took place on 8 November 1987 in Enniskillen,County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. A Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) bomb exploded near the town's war memorial (cenotaph) during aRemembrance Sunday ceremony, which was being held to commemorate British military war dead. Eleven people (ten civilians and a police officer), many of them old age pensioners, were killed and 63 were injured. The IRA said it had made a mistake and that its target had been the British soldiers parading to the memorial.

No "side" can claim moral superiority in all of this.

y va marquer

Was anyone shocked this week when UK Brexit secretary Dominic Raabinadvertently acknowledged that he is an idiot? Talking about Brexit’s impact on the availability of stuff in shops, he was quoted as saying that he hadn’t realised that Dover was important to British trade.

“I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this....but if you look at the UK, at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing....”

He also told us that Britain is, apparently, an island, and would, therefore, experience one or two logistical difficulties with imports and exports once it leaves the world’s largest free-trade area.

Almost simultaneously the health secretary issued an appeal to people not to stockpile drugs.

Participating in an outbreak of honesty, the UK’s culture secretary revealed that he does not read very much. If he did he would have noticed the leaking of the deal that will be necessary if there is a no-deal Brexit. And the new backstop to the Border backstop. And the leaked draft deal that everyone hates.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-shows-that-idiots-and-incompetents-are-in-charge-in-the-uk-1.3693980%3fmode=amp

Burnwinter

Brexit's a fucking mess. The negotiations are like trying to win a round of poker after everyone's seen your hand. And they knew it'd be this way. Every factor favours the European side.

y va marquer wrote:
No "side" can claim moral superiority in all of this.

Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean everyone has to submit to wearing a poppy if it feels wrong to them. Even if for some others this year it might be a conciliatory gesture.

The British Empire wasn't engaged in symmetrical struggle with its subject peoples, it was brutalising them. No one should be forced to set that history aside in the name of a final reconciliation before it's time.

arsedocmd

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/british-rewarded-india-s-help-in-world-war-1-by-imposing-draconian-laws-writes-shashi-tharoor/story-A1DwZIHgIKIbMdlvlPBbDL.html

y va marquer

Burnwinter wrote:
Brexit's a fucking mess. The negotiations are like trying to win a round of poker after everyone's seen your hand. And they knew it'd be this way. Every factor favours the European side.

y va marquer wrote:
No "side" can claim moral superiority in all of this.

Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean everyone has to submit to wearing a poppy if it feels wrong to them. Even if for some others this year it might be a conciliatory gesture.

The British Empire wasn't engaged in symmetrical struggle with its subject peoples, it was brutalising them. No one should be forced to set that history aside in the name of a final reconciliation before it's time.

Did I argue that everyone should "submit to wearing a poppy"?
No. That's not been the point of any post I made on this.

y va marquer

There is no agreement on the total number of Irish soldiers who served in the British Army and Navy in the First World War. Professor Keith Jeffery gives a figure of 210,000. There appears to be a consensus that at least 35,000 died though the figure on the National War Memorial is 49,400.

About 140,000 enlisted in Ireland during the war.

When the soldiers returned to Ireland, they found a changed political climate. The election in December 1918 was a clear endorsement of Sinn Fein outside of the traditional Unionist areas. The sacrifices made in the war were sidelined in the southern provinces whereas the losses at the Somme became part of the heritage of the new Northern Ireland.

Some ex-soldiers joined the IRA, notably Emmet Dalton who had served with Tom Kettle. He is on record as having no difficulty in fighting for Ireland with the British and fighting for Ireland against the British. Others joined the new Irish army.

https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/State_Commemorations/Irish_Soldiers_in_the_First_World_War/

Burnwinter

y va marquer wrote:
Did I argue that everyone should "submit to wearing a poppy"?
No. That's not been the point of any post I made on this.

Fair play Y. Did I argue that you'd argued that? No. If I read between the lines, so did you.

You posted twice about two republicans, Liadh Ní Riada and Martin McGuinness, who chose to wear a poppy as a conciliatory gesture.

I took your point to be that it was commendable to relinquish hard political lines in the face of historical tragedy. One problem for me is that appears not to be a commensurate relinquishment of British nationalism going on at the moment.

I would hold the line that it should be permissible to refuse to wear a poppy in any situation, and that what matters is one's attitude to peace and to history. I'm guessing we agree on that.

y va marquer

Mc Guinness didn't choose to wear a poppy, not to my knowledge anyway.

My point was that Bold Tone was not accurate in saying that "republicans won't wear it" and the posts that followed were to illustrate the type of internal conflicts that a republican might have when it comes to wearing the poppy.

I understand why people would wear the poppy and I get why people like McClean object.
if people want to get hysterical about it on social media that's par for the course, that's the quality of the discourse that these questions generate in that arena.

Burnwinter

I think I understand you now, and for the most part I completely agree.

The issue for me, I guess, is that the hysteria and anxiety about wearing these symbols is quite mainstream.

I find the resurgence of all this national symbolism and all of the related mournful hand-wringing a bit disturbing. What is it all for? Why now?

Australia leads the world in WWI commemoration expenditure. I've seen it reported that our government has spent more than every other nation combined. They've just announced another half a billion dollars funding for the War Memorial in Canberra, so it's pretty out of control here, an orgy of new museums, monuments and services.

y va marquer

I'd suggsst that social media is the mainstream these days, perfect breeding ground for tribalism and creating / resurrecting conflit.

It's vile.

I imagine the mobs who abused McClean from the stands are emboldened and revved up by the sense of camaraderie they feel with the online mob who got stuck into him.

It was foolish to directly confront them on his Insta account though, that was red meat to them and it's prolonged the whole drama this year.

goon

Sounds like they've finally agreed the withdrawal text. Now for the hard part...

Mirth

Mirth wrote:
Biggest fudge in history coming right up.

Called it last year.

The theatrics behind this mirrors transfer deadline day perfectly. Just need Harry Redknapp to take an interview from his SUV.

Klaus

I see your Redknapp in an SUV and raise you a Boris Johnson on a bicycle:

Qwiss

Burnwinter wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
Did I argue that everyone should "submit to wearing a poppy"?
No. That's not been the point of any post I made on this.

Fair play Y. Did I argue that you'd argued that? No. If I read between the lines, so did you.

You posted twice about two republicans, Liadh Ní Riada and Martin McGuinness, who chose to wear a poppy as a conciliatory gesture.

I took your point to be that it was commendable to relinquish hard political lines in the face of historical tragedy. One problem for me is that appears not to be a commensurate relinquishment of British nationalism going on at the moment.

I would hold the line that it should be permissible to refuse to wear a poppy in any situation, and that what matters is one's attitude to peace and to history. I'm guessing we agree on that.

Bit of context. Not taking sides. Liadh Ní Riada was running for President of Ireland. She stated that she would be a president for all of Ireland and that she would wear a poppy as an olive branch to Unionists. SF, or at least the more prominent members, have been engaged in this olive branch stuff pretty hard since Brexit. They're readying for a re-unification vote.

If the capitulation by May thats being reported now is true then they probably wont go for one as soon as they had hoped.

Burnwinter

Brexit is a hell of a drug.

Been amazing watching Boris Johnson's no-mark brother getting catapulted into the spotlight in the past few days as a sort of Remainer blond kryptonite / antiboris.

goon

😆

It’s going to get a whole lot more whacky over the next month or so I reckon.

Mirth

Burnwinter wrote:
Been amazing watching Boris Johnson's no-mark brother getting catapulted into the spotlight in the past few days as a sort of Remainer blond kryptonite / antiboris.

I still can't get over how Rees Mogg became a household name - hadn't even heard of the man before 2017.

goon

It's a little surreal to see this insanely rich, posh stereotypical Tory become the hero of the same bunch of low income working class folk who he looks upon with disdain.

Mirth

goon wrote:
It's a little surreal to see this insanely rich, posh stereotypical Tory become the hero of the same bunch of low income working class folk who he looks upon with disdain.

I don't actually think that's true - neither Johnson or JRM are popular enough to justify the amount of coverage they receive: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/22/tories-leadership-may-johnson-rees-mogg-icm-poll

This led to Johnson soaring to the top in the regular survey of Conservative party members conducted by the ConservativeHome website about who they want as next leader, overtaking the backbench Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg.

But, asked by ICM if the Conservatives would have a better chance of winning the next election under Johnson, only 27% of respondents agreed, while 45% disagreed, giving Johnson a net score of -18.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, who is popular with rightwing activists despite playing down his desire to mount a leadership challenge, is also seen as a vote loser, with a net score of -19. Sajid Javid, who since being promoted to home secretary is increasingly seen as a strong candidate to succeed May, also comes out as a potential liability, with a net score of -18.

However, the more prominence they receive, the more they'll be able to cast the narrative in their favour.

goon

Oh absolutely, it's the same with Farage.

Still, they definitely have a surprising amount of support from people who you wouldn't expect. It's pretty obvious why, but surreal to see nonetheless.

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