UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 45 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

Qwiss

Anti-Semitism within Labour is no different now than it was under any of its centrist leaders. Its always been a bit of a problem but its only raised as an issue now because people don't like Corbyns stance on the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

jones

Mirth wrote:
jones wrote:
But it's not Labour that's being criticised it's Corbyn. To be precise among other public figures like Rabbi Sacks it's the Blairite venomous bunch within Labour that is constantly attacking him for being anti-Semitic while excusing every single policy, act or killing committed by Netanyahu and his regime

I'm not going to pretend that people won't use anything they can get their hands on to kick Corbyn to the curb. But that side steps the issue by making it seem like all the noise is coming from 'the other' side or that there's some wider conspiracy here.

Isn't both possible? There is some antisemitism in Labour and that evidence is being used to link and smear Corbyn with it? Why does anybody even care whether there are anti-Semites in Labour as opposed to in the Tories or any other party or organisation? I've seen several polls that among conservatives there are a lot more people prejudiced against Jews or other minorities but I've never seen anyone asking Theresa May why she hasn't eradicated it from her party or voter base.

I recommend this Al Jazeera documentation although a tinfoil disclaimer is probably in order here. If you don't mind it though it gives a pretty good idea why that is

Mirth

jones wrote:
Mirth wrote:
I'm not going to pretend that people won't use anything they can get their hands on to kick Corbyn to the curb. But that side steps the issue by making it seem like all the noise is coming from 'the other' side or that there's some wider conspiracy here.

Isn't both possible?

Absolutely - that's been my point from the start. I just felt that your initial post didn't acknowledge this.

There is some antisemitism in Labour and that evidence is being used to link and smear Corbyn with it? Why does anybody even care whether there are anti-Semites in Labour as opposed to in the Tories or any other party or organisation?

I don't agree with this. At best it's clumsily worded but if this is where you're coming from then I think we'll struggle to find any common ground.

If we take a step back, you should know that Labour should be held up against it's own standards rather than comparing it to any other country or party. I think it's incredible mean spirited when people say that the Tories are bad but they are not worse than UKIP or Front National and the same rules apply here. Pointing fingers elsewhere isn't really a legitimate position to hold.

Secondly, historically British Jews have generally gravitated to the Labour party. Moreover, Labour themselves try and identify with minority groups across the country and if British Jews say that they cannot turn to any party then we're effectively saying that a group isn't being represented in parliament and that's a cause for concern.

I've seen several polls that among conservatives there are a lot more people prejudiced against Jews or other minorities but I've never seen anyone asking Theresa May why she hasn't eradicated it from her party or voter base.

Personally I think this is another 'whataboutism' but, regardless, if we're going to quote opinion polls, most British Jews who answered the YouGov survey would disagree with your findings:

Over 80 per cent of British Jews believe the Labour party is too tolerant of anti-Semitism among its own MPs, members and supporters, a new poll has found.

According to the poll by YouGov for the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA), which surveyed 2,025 British Jews over the last month, nearly two in 10 – 19 per cent – of respondents believed the Conservatives were not doing enough to tackle anti-Semitism in the party’s ranks

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-anti-semitism-jeremy-corbyn-inquiry-shami-chakrabarti-yougov-poll-a7902251.html

For the record, there was a lot of criticism (rightfully) of the Tories and May when the Windrush scandal emerged. I actually think May should have stepped down over that but, either way, I don't think either May or Corbyn are getting a particularly easy ride at the moment and their own parties would rather not let them contest another election.

jones

Mirth wrote:

There is some antisemitism in Labour and that evidence is being used to link and smear Corbyn with it? Why does anybody even care whether there are anti-Semites in Labour as opposed to in the Tories or any other party or organisation?

I don't agree with this. At best it's clumsily worded but if this is where you're coming from then I think we'll struggle to find any common ground.

If we take a step back, you should know that Labour should be held up against it's own standards rather than comparing it to any other country or party. I think it's incredible mean spirited when people say that the Tories are bad but they are not worse than UKIP or Front National and the same rules apply here. Pointing fingers elsewhere isn't really a legitimate position to hold.

Secondly, historically British Jews have generally gravitated to the Labour party. Moreover, Labour themselves try and identify with minority groups across the country and if British Jews say that they cannot turn to any party then we're effectively saying that a group isn't being represented in parliament and that's a cause for concern.

I'm not pointing fingers, I'm pointing out inconsistencies. If this alleged higher standard still exists for the party that is responsible for Iraq 2003ff it sure has a very strange time to rear its head. Nobody cared about antisemitism among Labour members under Blair, Brown or Miliband, I wonder what changed that now suddenly it's one of the biggest concerns of the UK.

I've seen several polls that among conservatives there are a lot more people prejudiced against Jews or other minorities but I've never seen anyone asking Theresa May why she hasn't eradicated it from her party or voter base.

Personally I think this is another 'whataboutism'

Bit off topic but the term 'whataboutism' is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've never understand why it should be prohibited to criticise that an argument is used willfully inconsistently. Unless you're the one who's accused of something there is absolutely no reason to not point fingers in as many directions as you can

regardless, if we're going to quote opinion polls, most British Jews who answered the YouGov survey would disagree with your findings:

I did not quote opinion polls, I quoted polls where people gave anti-Semitic replies by themselves:

https://evolvepolitics.com/new-caa-report-shows-conclusively-that-tory-voters-are-far-more-anti-semitic-than-labour-voters/

I do notice the irony in not knowing what these anti-Semitic responses were but here we are.

Actually I'm just noticing that we are quoting the same poll (while your Independent article misses the crucial first part of the survey) which is further proof of how ridiculous this campaign is. There's a poll that shows that Tory voters and members are a lot more likely to harbour anti-Semitic views than Labour members. The same poll says that 80% of British Jews have the perception that Labour does not do enough against anti-Semitism vs 20% of British Jews thinking the same about the Conservative Party. And this discrepancy in perception and reality of course has nothing to do with the media coverage of these topics but this:

the cause of British Jews’ discontentment with the Labour Party must be the way that it has very publicly failed to robustly deal with the antisemites in its ranks. This means that the Labour Party has fallen out of step with its core supporters, who are generally less likely to hold antisemitic beliefs.

Astonishing mind acrobatics.

Mirth

jones wrote:
Mirth wrote:
I don't agree with this. At best it's clumsily worded but if this is where you're coming from then I think we'll struggle to find any common ground.

If we take a step back, you should know that Labour should be held up against it's own standards rather than comparing it to any other country or party. I think it's incredible mean spirited when people say that the Tories are bad but they are not worse than UKIP or Front National and the same rules apply here. Pointing fingers elsewhere isn't really a legitimate position to hold.

Secondly, historically British Jews have generally gravitated to the Labour party. Moreover, Labour themselves try and identify with minority groups across the country and if British Jews say that they cannot turn to any party then we're effectively saying that a group isn't being represented in parliament and that's a cause for concern.

I'm not pointing fingers, I'm pointing out inconsistencies. If this alleged higher standard still exists for the party that is responsible for Iraq 2003ff it sure has a very strange time to rear its head. Nobody cared about antisemitism among Labour members under Blair, Brown or Miliband, I wonder what changed that now suddenly it's one of the biggest concerns of the UK.

Was there as highly profile an antisemitic incident as Livingstone's rant that ended up being stretched out over a year instead of it being dealt with? I honestly can't remember but I doubt it. Blair danced through life covered in snake oil but I think it's disingenuous to say that Brown or Miliband had it easy with the media. It wasn't necessarily about antisemitism but there was plenty of shit being flung at those two, particularly when they looked like a threat. For instance, Miliband eating a bacon roll awkwardly genuinely became a national scandal! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Miliband_bacon_sandwich_photograph)

Anyway, plenty of those who are pro-Corbyn have also continued to keep this story moving along which slightly undermines your implication that this is a one sided attack by the media/Tories/new Labour. If that wasn't the case, this would have died down a long time ago. Corbyn's received grief about everything from his fashion sense to his economic policies without it affecting him in the last election - it might be worth taking a minute to wonder why this is the one thing that has ended up sticking the most?

Personally I think this is another 'whataboutism'

Bit off topic but the term 'whataboutism' is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've never understand why it should be prohibited to criticise that an argument is used willfully inconsistently. Unless you're the one who's accused of something there is absolutely no reason to not point fingers in as many directions as you can.

Usually when people point fingers at as many directions as possible it's because they don't acknowledge the mistakes in the position their holding. In other words, it's an exercise in deflection and further entrenches the polarised debates that we have.

Plus, I have to read shit headlines like this as a result: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/08/uk-journalist-mistakes-allo-allo-cast-reunion-hard-right-threat

regardless, if we're going to quote opinion polls, most British Jews who answered the YouGov survey would disagree with your findings:

Actually I'm just noticing that we are quoting the same poll (while your Independent article misses the crucial first part of the survey) which is further proof of how ridiculous this campaign is.

You're right - I always have second thoughts when posting a link to the Independent.

Qwiss

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-45442079

"I didn't understand things like when elections are fought for example in Northern Ireland - people who are nationalists don't vote for unionist parties and vice-versa," Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Karen Bradley.

Top class appointment there.

goon

I find it really disconcerting that the debate here has shifted from how bad Brexit will be for the economy, to how bad a no deal Brexit will be for the economy.

Klaus

Qwiss

Did you watch any of the speeches? I watched Mays and Sajid Javids, they were very extreme IMO. Javids especially felt extremely Trumpian.

Bold Tone

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-disciplined-stoke-after-13564888

According to The Times, the English FA will launch its first ever investigation into sectarian abuse following the barrage of vitriolic abuse, suspect packages and death threats directed at James McClean and his family of late.

Stoke City manager Gary Rowett elaborated on the abuse the Republic of Ireland international has faced due to his principled decision not to wear a poppy.
https://www.joe.ie/sport/mcclean-647385

Klaus

I saw that Matic declined to wear one too this year because NATO bombed the crap out of the village in Yugoslavia where he lived as a kid: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/05/football/nemanja-matic-manchester-united-poppy-serbia-spt-intl/index.html

I'm thinking that maybe it's not a great idea to wear poppies to begin with. Do they do this in any other British sport, or is it just football?

Mirth

Klaus wrote:
I'm thinking that maybe it's not a great idea to wear poppies to begin with. Do they do this in any other British sport, or is it just football?

They didn't even do it in football until recently! It's ridiculous.

Bold Tone

It's a weird one as i only really noticed it used by politicians, tv presenters/reporters and the royals as an extra show of respect.
Optics then took over and everyone in the public eye had to wear one to avoid sticking out.
The Irish situation complicates things as republicans won't wear it and so what once seemed a nice and voluntary gesture has been taken over by nationalism.

y va marquer

Bold Tone wrote:
The Irish situation complicates things as republicans won't wear it.....

Not accurate.

Sinn Féin presidential candidate Liadh Ní Riada would wear a poppy to commemorate those who died in the first World War.
The candidate said wearing a poppy would be an internal struggle and she “wouldn’t be jumping up with joy about it” but felt it would be an important gesture.

Burnwinter

Nothing against the remembrance of war, or the Armistice Day minute of silence (which I ended up observing while driving this morning).

But the upsurge in compulsory poppy nonsense in recent years has nothing to do with remembrance. I see Corbyn's been monstered again today despite attending a service and wearing a poppy. Allegedly his coat wasn't dignified enough and his poppy wasn't large enough? Absurd and thoughtless.

Sometimes memory is best kept alive by rejuvenating or refusing tradition.

Here's a few lines from Funeral Music by Geoffrey Hill.

Not as we are but as we must appear,
Contractual ghosts of pity; not as we
Desire life but as they would have us live,
Set apart in timeless colloquy.
So it is required; so we bear witness,
Despite ourselves, to what is beyond us,
Each distant sphere of harmony forever
Poised, unanswerable. If it is without
Consequence when we vaunt and suffer, or
If it is not, all echoes are the same
In such eternity. Then tell me, love,
How that should comfort us—or anyone
Dragged half-unnerved out of this worldly place,
Crying to the end ‘I have not finished’.

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
I saw that Matic declined to wear one too this year because NATO bombed the crap out of the village in Yugoslavia where he lived as a kid: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/05/football/nemanja-matic-manchester-united-poppy-serbia-spt-intl/index.html

I'm thinking that maybe it's not a great idea to wear poppies to begin with. Do they do this in any other British sport, or is it just football?

Its ridiculous that FIFA allowed an exemption for poppies when they've fined other countries for small remembrancey stuff.

Anyway every cloud https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

Bold Tone

y va marquer wrote:
Bold Tone wrote:
The Irish situation complicates things as republicans won't wear it.....

Not accurate.

Sinn Féin presidential candidate Liadh Ní Riada would wear a poppy to commemorate those who died in the first World War.
The candidate said wearing a poppy would be an internal struggle and she “wouldn’t be jumping up with joy about it” but felt it would be an important gesture.

Now if you said "Not strictly accurate", i wouldn't argue as it would take into account people like the one you quoted who would wear it with "some" reservation. You would know better but i'm guessing that, as a politician, it is a calculated decision.

[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Not engage in bickering over whether James McClean, or the English and Scottish teams, should wear the poppy, as all the bickering shows how far Poppy Day has drifted away from its original meaning.[/font][/size]

[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If Remembrance Day involved honoring those who died in all wars, and trying to stop future wars from occurring, then people would have no issue about supporting it on both sides of the Irish Sea.[/font][/size]
[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But if the poppy only honors the members of a colonial army, who caused so much suffering in so many lands, then no wonder its symbolism remains clouded in controversy.[/font][/size]
[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All of the bickering only shows that the red poppy has been hijacked by British nationalists in recent years, to the extent that many people feel very uncomfortable about wearing it."[/font][/size]
https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/poppy-fascism-forcing-irish-nationalists-to-wear-them-in-britain

jones

Qwiss! wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I saw that Matic declined to wear one too this year because NATO bombed the crap out of the village in Yugoslavia where he lived as a kid: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/05/football/nemanja-matic-manchester-united-poppy-serbia-spt-intl/index.html

I'm thinking that maybe it's not a great idea to wear poppies to begin with. Do they do this in any other British sport, or is it just football?

Its ridiculous that FIFA allowed an exemption for poppies when they've fined other countries for small remembrancey stuff.

Anyway every cloud https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

I like that twitter account. This poppy fetishism garbage is a joke

y va marquer

Bold Tone wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
Not accurate.

Now if you said "Not strictly accurate", i wouldn't argue as it would take into account people like the one you quoted who would wear it with "some" reservation. You would know better but i'm guessing that, as a politician, it is a calculated decision.

[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Not engage in bickering over whether James McClean, or the English and Scottish teams, should wear the poppy, as all the bickering shows how far Poppy Day has drifted away from its original meaning.[/font][/size]

[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If Remembrance Day involved honoring those who died in all wars, and trying to stop future wars from occurring, then people would have no issue about supporting it on both sides of the Irish Sea.[/font][/size]
[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But if the poppy only honors the members of a colonial army, who caused so much suffering in so many lands, then no wonder its symbolism remains clouded in controversy.[/font][/size]
[size=small][font=Lato, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All of the bickering only shows that the red poppy has been hijacked by British nationalists in recent years, to the extent that many people feel very uncomfortable about wearing it."[/font][/size]
https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/poppy-fascism-forcing-irish-nationalists-to-wear-them-in-britain

From 2016

Martin McGuinness yesterday paid tribute to the thousands of British soldiers killed on the battlefields of the First World War.

The former Provisional IRA commander claimed his trip was about "reaching out the hand of friendship to unionists".

He said it was a "sincere effort to recognise the human suffering and also the importance these events hold for the unionist section of our people".

Laying a wreath at the Island of Ireland Peace Park, close to Flanders Field yesterday, the Deputy First Minister said his hugely symbolic visit - which will also take in the Somme later today - was also about showing leadership.

Bold Tone

The problem with politicians is they play both sides.
I think his quote "reaching out the hand of friendship to unionists" also supports my argument as that is not the point of Remembrance.

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