UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 170 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One more in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

awooga83

JazzG I will sending a message by voting for the guy overseas millionaires are giving 5 million gifts to is crazy if you don't like the status quo what do you think that's going to do people don't just give 5m he'll be in the pocket of someone who doesn't live in the UK and very shady that would be totally foolish to see that as how you make things better.

JazzG

And Labour politicians aren't in the pockets of other people? Like I said they are all corrupt

awooga83

JazzG I mean they may well be but you don't vote for a guy taking money from shady overseas individuals if you are an ordinary person who wants change right you can see how that makes no sense? And I would say I don't think there has ever been a donation on this scale and that's only what we know about and you've already seen grifter Farage promoting crypto after it.

If your point is these are exactly the same and therefore you discount the actual differences in the detail then fine but drop the you want to vote for change shtick because that's clearly a lie so then what are you actually voting for. The only other thing Farage has impacted is Brexit and there is no way even the most ardent supporter can say it's led to anything good so he's previously shown he doesn't actually deliver and to boot he's going to be controlled by overseas millionaires I'm sure that's going to work out fine for all those left behind communities it's like C'mon are people going to be that foolish.

JazzG

awooga83 I mean they may well be

May well be? As soon as Starmer came into power he was taking free clothes from a donor, Angela Rayner was also at it. Just like that guy giving Farage money wants something out of it, Farage's reasons are all over the place about it but Lord Ali wasn't giving this out of kindness either.

awooga83 If your point is these are exactly the same and therefore you discount the actual differences in the detail then fine

What difference in detail? The amount or the way gifts are being given? These politicians are corrupt and being influenced. Farage is not even in power and personally am not entirely convinced you can be sure he will get into power so that guys £5m may have gone down the drain!

awooga83 The only other thing Farage has impacted is Brexit and there is no way even the most ardent supporter can say it's led to anything good so he's previously shown he doesn't actually deliver and to boot

Farage can be credited for helping get Brexit over the line but I'm not entirely sure it is fair to entirely blame him for how things have panned out afterwards. The establishment pushed hard to try and reverse or soften it which only led to Boris Johnson coming in with a large majority and mandate to deliver it. To be fair to him as soon as he got into power Covid hit but he was another incompetent idiot who probably would have fucked things up even without Covid.

As for Brexit, I do find the lefts view very interesting on this. One hand the soft left hate it and will try everything in their power to reverse it but then more left you go they support Brexit. I have no doubt Corbyn worked hard behind the scenes to make sure Brexit happened and one of the reasons some on the Labour soft left have not forgiven him and hold him responsible for that. Some of Labour's manifesto pledges (private school VAT and parts of the railway renationalisation) would not be possible under EU laws. Even recent British Steel nationalisation would probably not be allowed under the EU. I was probably tilting towards the remain side at the time but one part of Brexit that always appealed to me is the elected government having full control on this countries affairs and not being told by Brussels what was and wasn't allowed. Mario Draghi's report goes into details into the problems the EU is facing and there doesn't seem to be much desire for reform.

Burnwinter Gilts are higher now than after that budget!

Burnwinter

JazzG Also for all the lectures that were given to the Tories about their leadership problems to actually parachute someone in and try to make him PM is completely extraordinary and surely unprecedented?

Mate do you remember Liz Truss? You might want to recalibrate a little. Dire as it is, none of this stuff approaches the sheer folly of Kwasinomics.

awooga83

JazzG Farage can be credited for helping get Brexit over the line but I'm not entirely sure it is fair to entirely blame him for how things have panned out afterwards. The establishment pushed hard to try and reverse or soften it which only led to Boris Johnson coming in with a large majority and mandate to deliver it. To be fair to him as soon as he got into power Covid hit but he was another incompetent idiot who probably would have fucked things up even without Covid.

This is the classic narrative oh it was betrayed etc since time immemorial some human will have claimed the thing that didn't work would have worked if it wasn't for this or that other factor is a load of rubbish. Brexit clearly had lots of drawbacks that people expressed at the time but were told they aren't true. Now the data is coming out showing those consequences it's sometime else fault pretty pathetic really have some responsibility rather then weasel your way out.

It was what he haa argued for years to want bit he had no actual plan to share once the vote was done at I so think it's his fault and any of the architects of it they didn't have any idea beyond we don't like the EU. He said it would solve all the immigration profiles or didn't add that was bloody obvious so I'm sorry jazz it is fair to say he wanted Brexit and had no plan and what a suprise it's been disastrous.

awooga83

JazzG I was probably tilting towards the remain side at the time but one part of Brexit that always appealed to me is the elected government having full control on this countries affairs and not being told by Brussels what was and wasn't allowed.

This was also a lie the British parliament always had full responsibility for what happend in the past 40 years. It tries to suggest all are problems are just because of Europe if only the UK had control we'd be golden but we can clearly see now we didn't need Europe to be incompetent the British are just as exceptional in our national character in that regard.

Burnwinter

JazzG Farage can be credited for helping get Brexit over the line but I'm not entirely sure it is fair to entirely blame him for how things have panned out afterwards.

I see. Farage must be given credit for the event but must never be held to account for its consequences.

To paraphrase the old meme ... I care deeply about Britain but I campaigned for Brexit. The problems are bad, but their causes, their causes are very good!

JazzG

He should have told them the money was required for benefits and net zero, would have been allocated to him by the end of the week.

Absolute farce, Starmer's position is now completely untenable. No control on his party or cabinet and he should just walk away.

awooga83

JazzG the UK is a mess fascist thugs running around on the streets burning people's houses because they have decided they're foreign, Farage inciting violence the right have totally lost their way that's the biggest danger in the UK right now and needs to be tackled they've normalised extremism.

JazzG

awooga83 I agree but you should also point out why those houses were burned. Completely unacceptable and doing shit like that achieves nothing but that guy trying to behead someone on the street is what triggered this off. This has been bubbling under the surface for a long time and just blaming it all on Farage is cheap analysis, he is tapping into it to his advantage but people are genuinely sick of how this country is being run.

Farage is just getting desperate as Restore are eating into their numbers in the by-election, I think his rhetoric in recent weeks will come back to bite him on the arse. Sometimes you need to put your pride aside and look at the bigger picture rather than his beef with Rupert Lowe. Reform will lose that by-election and then they need to figure out whether they want to be a protest party or actual potential party of government.

awooga83

JazzG I agree but you should also point out why those houses were burned.

The houses were burned because people went hunting for foreigners it is similar in nature to the kind of violence that underpinned pogrom in Europe in the 20th century they aren't justified they are based in prejudice and hatred and they have nothing to do with migration. We don't even know the full context of the individual and the circumstances that led to the attack but the fascist view becomes it's because of foreigners as if native British people don't commit violence.

JazzG

Some of the houses burned, clearly not very smart people we are talking about Mindless thugs who will use any excuse to go around causing destruction. As for the motives, easy to say we won't know the motives. He was trying to behead the guy in the middle of the street, what kind of reaction do you think that would bring about?

Anyway what has the defence secretary resigning and Starmer's premiership imploding got to do with Nigel Farage? You like to bring up Farage but I am not entirely sure the Labour governments incompetence is down to Farage.

awooga83

JazzG I'm more worried about the right-wing then I am at a very unimpressive labour government. The consequences of any of them coo to power it's much worse for the trajectory is the country. So I'm summary I don't like what Labour is doing but there are far bigger threats to the UK that should be the focus of anyone who wants something better.

On the attack it's horrific no disputing that human beings do horrible things all the time and we don't always see this type of reaction. Think of some of the sexual crimes faced by women for example. It's a horrible attack but it's immigration has nothing at this point to do with it as we don't know the context. What happens if he was mentally unwell? The facts need to be understood to determine where any issues may lie rather then oh it's because he's a foreigner.

Coombs

JazzG what kind of reaction do you think that would bring about?

Why would anyone hurt a person they don't know, burn their homes, police cars, etc. because a different person they don't know attacked yet another person they don't know? Fuck the lot of them straight to the hell they deserve.

JazzG

awooga83 I'm more worried about the right-wing then I am at a very unimpressive labour government. The consequences of any of them coo to power it's much worse for the trajectory is the country. So I'm summary I don't like what Labour is doing but there are far bigger threats to the UK that should be the focus of anyone who wants something better.

The reason the 'right wing' is getting stronger is the incompetence of the government. This is why the Tories are unelectable and Labour will be too soon. If in the unlikely event Nigel Farage gets into power it won't be because voters are all behind him, it is because they dislike the alterative. Which funnily enough is exactly how Labour got into power, I think one person said at the time Labour didn't get voted in, the Tories got voted out. Kinda sums up how Labour got in with such a majority yet Corbyn got more actual votes than him twice.

Farage being right wing doesn't worry me, him being a right wing incompetent version of the current Labour government however does.

JazzG

Coombs Because they are a bunch of thugs looking to exploit this to create trouble

Qwiss

Coombs its their culture. They have been doing it for decades. Now they are just applying the same treatment to immigrants as they did to catholic communities. People are here talking about Starmer and Farage but these people have been anti-immigrant, anti-gay and anti-Irish long before the current political climate. The likes of Tommy Robinson don't turn up in loyalist areas in Belfast to convince people that immigrants are the problem, they go there because they know there is a ready made crowd of people who already have the exact same ideology. These people are white protestant supremacists. In a couple of weeks they'll be out lighting giant bombfires with banners saying "kill all taigs" and burning prominent Irish political figures in effigy. In Britain people get arrested for making racist tweets but in NI hate parades, bombfires and street parties are completely un-policed. In fact many of the people attending will be PSNI and former RUC members.

TLDR; This is loyalism exposed. They've been like this forever and they've been allowed to carry on like this by the British state since partition. And don't forget its only a few years since they were in government with the Tories.

awooga83

JazzG I do get worried about right wing politicians and online fascists inciting violence and seeing people going round attacking foreigners jazz. That worries me much more then unproductive governments and it's people vote for the right wing people who incite violence then they are just as culpable for it.

Pepe LeFrits

Qwiss They've been like this forever and they've been allowed to carry on like this by the British state since partition.

Since well before that. Prior to WW1 they were importing thousands of arms, marching in the streets and threatening insurrection, supported by the Tories in opposition.

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