UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 159 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One more in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

JazzG

Completely shameless this guy, almost like he is taking the piss as he knows this will all blow over. Some of the stuff in these emails should put him in jail, leaking state secrets and possible insider trading to name just a couple.

Lets see how the media react, they lost their mind when that dipstick Boris got caught eating cake but they'll try their best to brush this under the carpet. Mandelson is super well connected and if I was to take an educated guess an important source for a lot of journalists.

RocktheCasbah

JazzG Some of the stuff in these emails should put him in jail, leaking state secrets and possible insider trading to name just a couple.

Have to say, when I saw on the BBC News ticker yesterday there was really of him losing his peerage, all I could think was, fuck the peerage, the guy should be in prison.

That this guy was appointed to his position with Starmer knowing what he knew is unbelievable and, as you say, really puts a hole in the whole "we're different" schtick. You and I are politically opposed, I think it's fair to say, but on this I can only agree with you.

I'm a little bit in awe of how we've ended with a PM with no political instincts and, apparently, no ability to govern.

awooga83

JazzG it doesn't seem to have sunk trump or musk yet so I'm not optimistic these kind of people won't find a way to wriggle out of it. I think you can't assume what is or it isn't known by an intelligence service and I'm not sure they are actively involved in stuff like this like you think. It's pretty heavily linked to what's available publicly and what someone declares.

JazzG

awooga83 Why would it sink either of them? Epstein was one of the most linked up financiers in the world so not entirely surprising that two big business guys in Trump and Musk had some sort of dealings with him. Though I should add Musk communicating with him after his conviction is proper dodge but that might be more down to desperation for his business rather than him being involved in other things. Knowing him and having professional dealing is very different to what the likes of Mandelson & Prince Andrew were up to, both clearly were close friends and clearly not being honest about their relationship with him. Prior to his conviction you could argue that he was possibly keeping that part secret but once he was convicted people should be getting as far away as possible.

awooga83 The thing about Brexit is if the major economies in Europe were booming I would get it but the likes of France and Germany are in the shits with us as well so I'm not entirely sure Brexit is the root cause of our problems. I will say once we voted to leave completely fucked things up, nobody really had any conviction or idea about what to do and then covid hit which complicated things further. I voted remain but I do get the country could be a lot leaner and there were loads of benefits of not being in the EU but we clearly don't have the type of skills required to make it work. The drag on our economy is a lot more than Brexit, imo this country simply has not recovered post 2008 financial crash. In more recent years high energy costs and high taxes are crippling the economy.

RocktheCasbah The thing is I get why they bought him in, once Trump came in Labour clearly were in a bit of a panic, they spent their time in opposition bad mouthing him and now the person who is probably responsible for guaranteeing this countries security is in charge they are probably shitting it. Mandelson has bones in his closet to say the least but he is also one of the most skilled political operators out there so I do understand why they went to him. The problem if the authorities knew about all this and they still bought him in that is a big problem for Starmer. He is close to Starmer and McSweeney and they both fought hard to get him in so they both will need to take the heat for this as well.

Agree about your last point, he spent his time in opposition basically sitting on the fence and people thought he is just watching the Tories implode so best for him not to commit to anything. He has governed the same, flip flop and not really believing in anything nor using his huge majority to force difficult issues through which would benefit the country. He is spending huge political capital things which will have unintended consequences.

He is going to get hammered in the local elections and he blocked Andy Burnham from becoming an MP and probably lose that by-election as well. It is like the guy is a lame duck PM with a 170 seat majority, feels unprecedented but same happened with Rishi and his 80 seat majority but everyone knows you can't get anything through so it becomes a free for all!

awooga83

JazzG So what should they do? They have been let down by the conservatives and now Labour are just as bad if not worse. Lib Dems are just a vibes party, offer absolutely nothing so the alternatives right now are Reform or Greens. Which is why both are seeing massive surge in support. Both now are also facing increasing scrutiny which both parties aren't dealing with particularly well.

I can't say what someone may choose to do, my point was if you are fed up of being let down I don't think voting for people who've lied openly about things is going to get you a better outcome. But then perhaps you don't actually care about making things better which is fine as I've said just stop going on about being let down then.

Brexit has been a disaster for the UK it didn't make the economy better and it weakened our ability to negotiate as we are a much smaller fish. It didn't solve immigration as people like Farage claimed so either he was lying about that or he didn't know so was incompetent neither of them says vote for this guy to get actual change. None of this is hidden though which is why I've said if you vote for this you're not serious about things improving.

Tam

RocktheCasbah I'm a little bit in awe of how we've ended with a PM with no political instincts and, apparently, no ability to govern.

Same. I can’t quite wrap my head around how poor he has been at negotiating the politics of politics.

Mirth

JazzG Things won't get better if you pass laws and taxes which hammer businesses.

Seems like the economy is trending upwards post budget though. It's not just laws and taxes, it's headroom and certainty.

JazzG

awooga83 Yup if it turns out the British security services knew this and despite that Starmer pushed for him I think Starmer is basically finished. Being a bit shady and making a bit of money on the side seems standard practice for MPs but this guy is actively revealing high level state secrets. That is a big deal and like you say no wonder the Americans were keen on him, they basically have someone who is in the inner circle of the PM and have dirt on him that could put him jail.

Mirth Technically speaking anything above 0% is trending upwards! 0.2% last quarter wasn't it? We have sticky inflation and the BOE are cutting interest rates despite a lot of economists warning against this. This countries finances are not in a very healthy place.

Mirth

Also Mandelson being one of the worst people imaginable has been well known for 3 decades now. It's about as much as a surprise as finding out Jimmy Saville was a paedophile.

awooga83

Mirth yeah he was already known as a horrible person, the extent of selling out his own country probably not as this is information the US held but the judgement was that trump would love this type of character so it's worth it in terms of the appointment.

awooga83

JazzG Why would it sink either of them? Epstein was one of the most linked up financiers in the world so not entirely surprising that two big business guys in Trump and Musk had some sort of dealings with him. Though I should add Musk communicating with him after his conviction is proper dodge but that might be more down to desperation for his business rather than him being involved in other things. Knowing him and having professional dealing is very different to what the likes of Mandelson & Prince Andrew were up to, both clearly were close friends and clearly not being honest about their relationship with him. Prior to his conviction you could argue that he was possibly keeping that part secret but once he was convicted people should be getting as far away as possible.

I think both musk and trump have been more then just linked based on the documents that have so far been released and still not clear of that's everything. Associating with a known peadophile should sink someone I don't think theres any excuse a known abuser and you keep the contact nah that's rotten.

awooga83

JazzG The thing about Brexit is if the major economies in Europe were booming I would get it but the likes of France and Germany are in the shits with us as well so I'm not entirely sure Brexit is the root cause of our problems. I

It's more the idea Brexit would solve everything and it was all Europe holding us back and creating immigration. All of that was lies it's always been as much in the UK's control but Farage sold a total lie and has no solutions himself.

Mirth

JazzG The thing about Brexit is if the major economies in Europe were booming I would get it but the likes of France and Germany are in the shits with us as well so I'm not entirely sure Brexit is the root cause of our problems. I will say once we voted to leave completely fucked things up, nobody really had any conviction or idea about what to do and then covid hit which complicated things further. I voted remain but I do get the country could be a lot leaner and there were loads of benefits of not being in the EU but we clearly don't have the type of skills required to make it work. The drag on our economy is a lot more than Brexit, imo this country simply has not recovered post 2008 financial crash. In more recent years high energy costs and high taxes are crippling the economy.

Surely after the events of the last year, you can’t just think of Brexit on purely economic terms?

The choice is to throw in with the rest of the EU - warts and all - and have some degree of autonomy under a collective umbrella. Or submit to becoming Airstrip One.

The decision for the UK to go it alone just as the world becomes multi polar and transnational is a move of monumental stupidity.

Burnwinter

JazzG Why would it sink either of them? Epstein was one of the most linked up financiers in the world so not entirely surprising that two big business guys in Trump and Musk had some sort of dealings with him. Though I should add Musk communicating with him after his conviction is proper dodge but that might be more down to desperation for his business rather than him being involved in other things.

The Epstein files are like the Panama Papers … they're another opportunity to see how graft, corruption, influence-peddling and elite networking happily traverse what we believe are decisive democratic political lines … just as figures such as Trump and Musk have changed their political alliances over time, and will again if it suits them and they can get away with it.

Whether you only want to hear about the stuff that proves figures connected to UK Labour (or, say, Noam Chomsky) are ratbags … or you only want to finally see Trump get shot down … you're missing the point.

The point is that the whole political class has been severed from its social base. In the end most of these public figures are just manoeuvring in different zones of the same huge game of elite network musical chairs.

They all have different vices because they're rich and vice is the consolation of the rich. Some of them are paedophiles and some of them are rapists. However the vices aren't the underlying problem. The vices are a sickening epiphenomenon. The problem is that the world's being run by a minority of powerful people who don't give a fuck about the rest of us.

Brexit was bad for the UK economy. Don't trust me on that, just look it up. And as @Mirth says, Brexit was bad for the UK politically.

But for these powerful people, the question hasn't been whether Brexit was good or bad for the UK. Their question was whether Brexit was an outcome they could both rig and bet on … Brexit was a series of arbitrage opportunities where the outcomes served different blocs of interests.

For ordinary people, Brexit was a democratic paroxysm. It looked superficially like a democratic choice with a special significance—compared to a general election—but almost all the meanings they were told about were illusions. Did the people take back their sovereignty? Like fuck they did …

Mirth

JazzG Technically speaking anything above 0% is trending upwards! 0.2% last quarter wasn't it? We have sticky inflation and the BOE are cutting interest rates despite a lot of economists warning against this. This countries finances are not in a very healthy place.

Not healthy but still relatively well positioned. There's been a whole host of leading indicators trending upwards in the second half of the year and I'm of the view that a cyclical recovery is likely to take place over the next year or two.

I'll just say that even the Telegraph has taken the same view - and that's bloody hard for them: https://archive.is/en7af#selection-2295.0-2295.23 or this: https://archive.is/HWym4

Tam

JazzG Being a bit shady and making a bit of money on the side seems standard practice for MPs but this guy is actively revealing high level state secrets.

Well, steady on. This hasn’t been through the courts and seen Mandelson convicted of anything yet. All we’ve got is some unverified documents. I know from the Partey rape claims how concerned you are about levelling accusations against people who haven’t been proven guilty in a court of law without all the evidence having been put in the public domain.

JazzG

Mirth I hope you are right but considering the state of public finances I'm not entirely confident. We have a government who has no conviction and just have to see with their recent pub business rates u turn don't actually seem to understand what they are doing. There will be more u turns and Starmer is probably not going to last the year, new PM comes in and god knows what direction we go in then. It is that uncertainty that unsettles businesses.

JazzG

Tam Well, steady on. This hasn’t been through the courts and seen Mandelson convicted of anything yet. All we’ve got is some unverified documents. I know from the Partey rape claims how concerned you are about levelling accusations against people who haven’t been proven guilty in a court of law without all the evidence having been put in the public domain.

Interesting that is your takeaway from my comments and a rather odd you can sit here and read my views on Peter Mandelson and think let me throw his comments about Partey at him.

As for Mandelson, this is a guy who who has to resign in disgrace in the past over his dealing and considering he resigned as Ambassador, as a Lord and now the police are involved and he hasn't denied any of these emails are false, these are his actual emails to Epstein which have been released not some person throwing allegations at him.

Mirth

JazzG

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-businesses-consumers-show-signs-recovery-budget-worries-recede-2026-01-26/

The 'state of the public' finances is broadly the same across the world at the moment - the UK isn't an outlier. Even the US has somehow created a sugar rush from their capex intensive roll out of AI adjacent industries to drive growth.

But also, the overreaction in the build up to the budget was incredible - the media acted like it was a once in a generation event. In the end, while it was a fairly mediocre affair, it created enough fiscal headroom for the next couple of years and ended uncertainty at a macro level.

Sure, the government will flip flop and I don't expect any great tailwinds from them but that's the point of a cyclical recovery, it's got less to do with what the government does and more about the ground realities. The pub business rate U turns may be frustrating but don't really register on a $4 trillion economy.

It's hardly unusual, Spain and Italy have had a similar bounce post Covid despite having fundamental challenges in their public finances too. After a decade of underperformance, the UK doesn’t need a renaissance to improve outcomes - a simple reversion toward the mean would be enough.

awooga83

Mirth yep I'm the world we are in isolating yourself makes you weaker and in the climate is the rise of nation power you have limited leverage to improve anything for yourselves.

Gurgen

Never thought I'd say this but I agree with everything you wrote there.

Burnwinter

Gurgen I never thought you'd say that either. I wonder if we're both as right as me or as wrong as you 🤔

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