UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 158 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One more in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

Klaus

On a separate note, Lammy has really aged like a pear.

Tam

I don't agree with it. It's such a longstanding and foundational principle of the UK justice system that proposed changes of this extent should be in a manifesto. There is no consensus across the legal system that this is a move which would reap rewards in terms of reducing backlogs, simplifying the system, or offering a better value/cost basis for justice.

We've still got a third verdict of 'not proven' in Scottish Law (distinct from the system of England/Wales and Northern Ireland) which is under scrutiny and subject to proposals to scrap.

awooga83

Tam I don't necessarily think this is the right way to proceed and as a check against state party power I can see a stronger case. But having experienced being on a jury they are certainly not in my view likely to lead to justice then any other. The reality is what people are asked to do on them requires quite specific ability to assess complex information and to be aware of your own prejudice and remove any emotion from your decision.

I'm my case one person could find no evidence from the tria to support their ultimate decision when coming to explain it but ultimately said I'm not really bothered about the evidence the person looks like a liar so I'm going to say they are guilty. Or was a pretty big wake call for me and made me absolutely convinced I would have no faith in being tried by jury. But as I said purely as a check on state power rather then any argument you get justice is more compelling for me.

JazzG

Tam Agree, something like this should either be in the manifesto or put to a referendum it is a massive change to our system. It also won't even massively cut the backlog from what I've seen, the problems are much deeper and down to lack of funding rather than jury trials taking too long.

JazzG

In other news the government is getting stuck in their own web of lies.

The head of the OBR has resigned after the budget leaked yet the Treasury have been drip feeding it into the media for weeks and nobody is going to lose their job over that. Even though these moves can manipulate and move markets which is what I understand is being investigated. The government have turn on the OBR is amusing considering before the election they wanted to hand the OBR even more power!

Incredible this lot have come in with this majority, this is what happens when you don't really have any plan and their time in opposition was to sit on the fence.

awooga83

JazzG I think the OBR subsequently said said that don't judge their was any lies and discussion about government policy are always impacting markets that's just the nature of government so I don't think what's happens actually matters that much. It's absolutely a disastrous way to try to communicate but it's not really a big deal and I haven't seen any credible claims about investigations myself. Badenoch though some claims around but she seems to have decided to embrace the online conspiracy approach to opposition. She was also asked about triple lock and said it would stay it's Tory policy but anyone with actual understanding knows that's also dishonest so by her own shallow test I guess she'll have to fall in her sword promptly after Reeves.

JazzG

Klaus I think they are suggesting for cases where the sentence is 3 years and under jury trials are abolished. Their reasons for doing this are basically a load of nonsense, that barrister who was on the BBC clips earlier sets out how it will make no material difference to the backlog. If this doesn't massively reduce the backlog what exactly does it achieve? If you want to get rid of them that is fine but you shouldn't be making major changes to civil liberties in this countries based on misleading information.

Klaus

JazzG I'm always suspicious too when politicians want to make big changes to the legal system, and want to do it fast.

GooneriC

The UK is so messed up. Thinking of selling our properties in London and. Leeds and reinvesting elsewhere. Reform coming into power would probably seal the decision , but Labour under Keir Starver would probably lead to the same

awooga83

GooneriC I would love to claim UK exceptionalism😂 but I think you could switch your comment for the world nowhere looks good. Nationalist populism becoming the norm countries initiating aggressive wars to annex territory and rounding on the others whoever they are. Europe basically incapable of defending itself or is Europe interests because it took it's eye of the ball it's pretty much a global shit show.

JazzG

An actual Labour MP tweeting this is incredible, the government have no spine at all. Read earlier today 13th U-turn already, they seem to announce a policy, get hammered and spend huge political capital defending it and then think fuck it lets change our minds.

They spent their whole time in opposition sitting on the fence and some thought it was some master tactic, turns out they actually have no idea what they are doing and now in government look completely incompetent. What is worse is Starmer is basically a lame duck PM now, it is an open secret that they are plotting to oust him so he will struggle to get any tough things done.

awooga83

They have become obsessed with Farage and trying not to do anything they think will offend that group but they will never vote for them. But the world is a mess you've got the other extreme to Starmer trump who is openly corrupt stealing from the public and pushing the country to authoritarianism and destroying the US perception abroad so Starmer is not going to change anything which is depressing but in comparison to that it's somehow the better of those options.

JazzG

awooga83 They have no vision and no idea, when that happens they stick their finger in the air and whichever direction the wind is blowing head off in that direction. The problem is when you don't truly believe in anything eventually that gets exposed and it shows. Starmer is a hollow politician, I think I said this before but I have more respect for someone like Corbyn. Disagree with him completely but at least he believes in something.

awooga83 People who are voting for Farage aren't voting for him because they believe in his vision. I don't see any vision, Farage is imo the dog that caught the car. It is becoming increasingly obvious that he has no real plan, they have peaked early and now voters want to see what their vision is they are not really seeing anything. They are voting for him to protest because they are sick of the current and previous governments. I've seen nothing to suggest Reform could turn anything around but I would say I've got even less faith in the other options. Leaves the country in a shit place really.

Kemi has had a good day today! She got wind of Jenrick and booted him out before he could stick the knife in. I think she and the Conservative party are screwed either way but got the boot in before Farage/Jenrick could do real damage. Kemi started off a complete joke but in recent months has looked a lot better, mainly helped by the fact that the current government is a complete joke basically leaving open goals for her every week but she wasn't scoring from those open goals a few months ago! The bar is low! I also think that is why Jenrick is jumping ship, Kemi was sinking and he probably thought in 2026 she'd finally be booted and he'd walk in but in recent weeks that has looked less likely and he's decided while he has some kind of leverage get into Reform.

[edit]

Despite all this fighting between Reform/Conservatives come the general elections everyone knows an electoral pact will be made and there will be a similar one on the left between Labour, Lib Dems and possibly even the Greens as there is no clear front runner who will be win the next election

awooga83

Reform the party of change full of all the same people who have been involved in government for the past 15 years. If anyone supporting them cannot see how they are just grifters full of people who only care about their own ambition and are not going to solve anything for normal people then there really is no hope if the electorate can be fooled so easily in the UK.

awooga83

I don't know about not believing Farage electorates tend not to really understand how long real change takes with investment etc. They get angry after 5 years when they see nothing but that's not long enough for anything meaningful at a country level. If what you say is right that people don't care about making things better and just want to vote for someone because they are annoyed then it's not worth listening to the things they say they are angry about because If that's the attitude they never cared about solving them so what's the point on wasting effort listening to people not debating in good faith.

I'm pretty let down by current politics but I know for a fact Farage will absolutely be worse then what we have today so if there's one thing I know he will be a disaster for the UK and won't improve anything. He's the same person who claimed Brexit would solve all the ills bit that just seems to be ignored now. Not too mention reform are filled with many of the people who contributed to the things reform voters apparently are motivated about so why are they going to vote for the status quo.

JazzG

awooga83 They get angry after 5 years when they see nothing but that's not long enough for anything meaningful at a country level. If what you say is right that people don't care about making things better and just want to vote for someone because they are annoyed then it's not worth listening to the things they say they are angry about because If that's the attitude they never cared about solving them so what's the point on wasting effort listening to people not debating in good faith.

I don't think anyone is expecting any government to turn things around but they need to see some kind of vision or some kind of plan. Which is something the current government are completely lacking in. Well they do have one plan, which is how does Starmer retain power by throwing red meat at his back benchers to keep them from booting him out. That will eventually fail as well.

awooga83

JazzG I don't think starmer or labour are doing enough I just think if your response is to vote for Farage then you as a voter do not seriously care about improving anything.

Mirth

In the interest of balance, NHS wait times have started to reduce after 14 years of increases, violent crime and homicide rates have reduced (with all time lows in London), positive laws for the better protection of workers and renters have been introduced.

It's not that nothing has improved - but the main issue is that economy is still in the shitter for most people. However, if that does pick up towards the end of the Parliament, I suspect the other pieces of improvements - NHS, workers right etc - will get due credit by the voters.

JazzG

awooga83 So what should they do? They have been let down by the conservatives and now Labour are just as bad if not worse. Lib Dems are just a vibes party, offer absolutely nothing so the alternatives right now are Reform or Greens. Which is why both are seeing massive surge in support. Both now are also facing increasing scrutiny which both parties aren't dealing with particularly well.

Mirth Things won't get better if you pass laws and taxes which hammer businesses.

JazzG

Will this be the scandal which sinks Mandelson? I doubt it, the likes of Starmer fought hard to get him in and now are burned as a result of all this. But they also know that Mandelson probably has enough to take them all down as well so there will be a lot of talk and then when things quiet down they'll water it all down. The US were sitting on all this while he became ambassador, surely our own intelligence must have known about this and should have flagged he is badly compromised?

When you consider that Starmer and his team banged the drum of integrity and how they were different and turns out they aren't so different after all. Lost count of how many scandals now with front bench MPs.

awooga83

JazzG it doesn't seem to have sunk trump or musk yet so I'm not optimistic these kind of people won't find a way to wriggle out of it. I think you can't assume what is or it isn't known by an intelligence service and I'm not sure they are actively involved in stuff like this like you think. It's pretty heavily linked to what's available publicly and what someone declares.

awooga83

JazzG So what should they do? They have been let down by the conservatives and now Labour are just as bad if not worse. Lib Dems are just a vibes party, offer absolutely nothing so the alternatives right now are Reform or Greens. Which is why both are seeing massive surge in support. Both now are also facing increasing scrutiny which both parties aren't dealing with particularly well.

I can't say what someone may choose to do, my point was if you are fed up of being let down I don't think voting for people who've lied openly about things is going to get you a better outcome. But then perhaps you don't actually care about making things better which is fine as I've said just stop going on about being let down then.

Brexit has been a disaster for the UK it didn't make the economy better and it weakened our ability to negotiate as we are a much smaller fish. It didn't solve immigration as people like Farage claimed so either he was lying about that or he didn't know so was incompetent neither of them says vote for this guy to get actual change. None of this is hidden though which is why I've said if you vote for this you're not serious about things improving.

Mirth

JazzG Things won't get better if you pass laws and taxes which hammer businesses.

Seems like the economy is trending upwards post budget though. It's not just laws and taxes, it's headroom and certainty.

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