UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 140 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One more in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

Coombs

JazzG British children aren't literally being ripped to shreds every single day by those bombs, are they?

Political implications are the same as your real-world implications, its just that they are so often deferred onto someone else. To act with impunity is to have no real sense that your actions have consequences. "Kill your MP" is a stupid, vicious, and counterproductive thing to say, but the underlying frustration is quite clear, isn't it? Their decisions kill, and they kill viciously, counterproductively, and stupidly. But they bear none of those consequences in any real sense. Losing your seat is a shrug of the shoulders relative to carrying the bloodied corpse of your child through the rubble of what was once your home.

JazzG

And you think MPs or government here have any say of what is happening in Gaza right now? The UK provide less than 1% of Israel's military imports, why does anyone think our opinion even matters? The UK could stop providing that and it would make no difference whatsoever.

I think some people vastly overrate the UK's influence in the world, we have literally no say in what goes on there. The Americans will decide what does and does not happen.

Burnwinter

JazzG And you think MPs or government here have any say of what is happening in Gaza right now?

So wait a sec, do we reckon Kneecap has any say over Hamas and Hezbollah?

I agree though, the situation is quite cut and dried.

On one side you've got a fanatic, religious, ethnonationalist armed group that can't be reasoned or bargained with, which in the past year or two has committed the cold-blooded massacre of tens of thousands of innocent civilians under the logic of perverse and genocidal ideology.

On the other you've got a handful of "designated terrorist groups" and some Irish pop stars.

Qwiss

JazzG The UK could stop providing that and it would make no difference whatsoever.

Then stop. The idea that the UKs support to Israel doesn't matter is complete and utter nonsense. Of course it matters.

Coombs

JazzG that makes it even worse!

JazzG

Burnwinter So wait a sec, do we reckon Kneecap has any say over Hamas and Hezbollah?

I don't think anyone has said and what relevance that has to anything?

But last I checked showing support for terrorists and calling for MPs to be killed is an offence. No entirely surprising this edgy pop group has suddenly shit their pants when that has become apparent.

Burnwinter

JazzG I don't think anyone has said and what relevance that has to anything?

Well, you were getting into defending the UK for its complicity in a horrifying genocide, by way of its longstanding military and diplomatic alliance with Israel, on the basis of a claim UK bureaucrats and ministers don't have much influence on the Israeli state or the IDF.

Given this position it'd be inconsistent to criticise anyone for merely saying they sympathise with Hamas or Hezbollah or inviting others to do so.

Not only do Kneecap do much less to materially support these "designated terrorist groups" than the UK state has done and still does to support the IDF's genocide, what the IDF has been doing in Gaza is far worse than anything Hamas or Hezbollah have been up to.

It's an easy argument the Israeli state is the worst of the terrorists, and the UK state among the worst of its corrupt and ruthless allies. But don't worry: I know feelings don't care about my facts.

JazzG

You can say what you like Burns but the UK has little to no influence over Israel, they can be with or against them and it doesn't matter either way.

Burnwinter Given this position it'd be inconsistent to criticise anyone for merely saying they sympathise with Hamas or Hezbollah or inviting others to do so.

Well turns out the law doesn't allow support for terrorists group or for calling for the killing of MPs.

Burnwinter But don't worry: I know feelings don't care about my facts.

Your facts....

Burnwinter

JazzG Well turns out the law doesn't allow support for terrorists group or for calling for the killing of MPs.

My point is surely no one should care more about a bit of edgy rhetoric ... than they do about decades of manufacturing and selling arms to a regime that's currently slaughtering civilians, added up to a lot of diplomatic hot air in the present that does nothing to prevent it.

I'd honestly rather change your mind than have a pop at you mate, but I don't have the slightest idea why you think the way you do.

In one dialogue you'll be talking about the 3 girls killed in Southport as if they were your own children.

In another you'll be concern trolling about some bien-pensant hiphop lads chatting shit about "killing MPs" because they, just like the rest of us, can read the news and so they know the Israeli military campaign to "return the hostages and destroy Hamas" turned swiftly into a cynical bloodbath. 20,000+ children murdered in cold blood and that's the very thin end of the real toll in Gaza.

Sure it's not at all easy or even possible to bring together everything awful that happens in the world into some commensurate sense, but I don't really grasp how some think about it.

Mirth

Qwiss yep, look at how quickly the UK (and France) led on Ukraine when Trump had second thoughts.

Never heard of Kneecap but they seem like your classic garden variety edgelords. If you truly want them to go away, ignore them.

JazzG

Qwiss The UK have said they'd arrest Benjamin Netanyahu if he stepped foot in this country. I don't think the relations between countries are as great as people like to think. Like I said the UK are completely irrelevant when it comes to this, it is America who decides and this country are essentially their lap dogs and do as they are told.

Also if you want to get desperately needed aid into Gaza so their people don't starve to death you have to do that through Israel. So burning your bridges with them also isn't a good idea.

Qwiss

JazzG the "real world implications" were that your police and political class were trying to find ways to lock them up. I thought you were all for free speech? Not a massive fucking hypocrite are you Jazz?

JazzG

Qwiss So does free speech mean they can go around calling for MPs to be killed? That isn't my idea of free speech, that sounds like incitement. I'm not overly bothered about them supporting Hamas or Hezbollah.

Qwiss

Mirth they're not really. A lot of what they do is satire that people don't get. The "kill your MP" stuff would fit in with that. Their Hezbollah stuff is probably a bit more genuine but it wouldn't be overly unusual to have sympathy with Hamas and Hezbollah in West Belfast or even the rest of Ireland, or at least a more nuanced understanding of what they are beyond "terrorists bad".

Mirth

Qwiss I mean that's the rational that MAGA apply when trolling as well. Then the opposite faction realises there's some political capital to be made by piling in but in the end nothing of consequence ends up happening except everyone is now on a slightly larger soapbox. Rinse and repeat.

Qwiss

JazzG Also if you want to get desperately needed aid into Gaza so their people don't starve to death you have to do that through Israel. So burning your bridges with them also isn't a good idea.

So you are arming Israel to help the people of Gaza?

JazzG it wasn't. And it happened almost 2 years ago. This is a witch hunt because of their public criticism of Israel.

Qwiss

Mirth maybe you should look into them more instead of going straight from "never heard of them" to "they are just like MAGA".

JazzG

Qwiss it wasn't. And it happened almost 2 years ago. This is a witch hunt because of their public criticism of Israel.

Doesn't matter if it was 10 years ago. We have people sitting in jail over the riots last year for saying shitty things, surely everyone should be treated equally so why should these lot be treated any differently? Sounds like they want to send their own messages but not face any scrutiny themselves. Happy to take UK government money and then call foMPs to be killed....

Qwiss So you are arming Israel to help the people of Gaza?

You got a better solution to get aid into Gaza? Do you think if the UK cut all ties with Israel they'll allow any UK aid into Gaza? The UK is hardly arming the IDF, less than 1% or something like that. The countries that most of their arm come from are the US and Germany.

Mirth

Qwiss I didn't say they're are idealogically like MAGA. It doesn't matter what comparator I use - be it MAGA, Arsenal Fan TV or even Mr.Beast - the playbook is clear. Maybe you'd benefit from some distance instead?

Big Willie Champ

Burnwinter In one dialogue you'll be talking about the 3 girls killed in Southport as if they were your own children.

That's not a fair comparison. In Stockport it was white kids being killed and was allegedly done by brown muslims.

JazzG

Burnwinter I'd honestly rather change your mind than have a pop at you mate, but I don't have the slightest idea why you think the way you do.

Yes a lot of people who have different political leanings seem to have think only their view is right.

Burnwinter In one dialogue you'll be talking about the 3 girls killed in Southport as if they were your own children.

What exactly is the comparison here? Israel and Hamas are at war with each other. They are both doing despicable things to each other. Then you have some bloke who goes in and stabs a bunch of random kids at a summer camp. Do you I need to check with you what I am and not allowed to outraged by?

You think I like what is going on in Gaza or support innocents being killed? Fucking hell man some the minds on here are warped.

JazzG

Burnwinter My point is surely no one should care more about a bit of edgy rhetoric .

What makes you think I care more, all I did was a post a link to them suddenly back tracking after making their stupid comments. Now all of a sudden supposedly I am a sympathiser for kids being killed in Gaza.

Qwiss

Mirth you hadn't heard of them a few minutes ago.

Mirth

Qwiss minutes is harsh. It's true I only heard of them this week and there's nothing that initially made me want to read into them more

But your post prompted by interest so I'm happy to be re-educated - point me to something that suggests that's calls to killing an MP is actually a fairly sophisticated satire rather than your bog standard trolling. This trolling then outrages the British press and the usual factions try to pile in to score points.

FWIW I'm not offering a moral judgement on them - they're not the first band to outrage the establishment!

Qwiss

JazzG We have people sitting in jail over the riots last year for saying horrible things

Sounds like an extremely repressive country you live in.

JazzG You got a better solution to get aid into Gaza?

Loads of counties send aid to Gaza without sending weapons to Israel.

JazzG Happy to take UK government money

You do realise they are from the UK?

Qwiss

Mirth This trolling then outrages the British press and the usual factions try to pile in to score points.

It didn't though. It happened years ago and no one cared. This is something dragged up now to cause hysteria due their Coachella Palestine/Israel graphic. They're a comedy rap group who are playing characters of over the top Northern Irish Republican stereotypes. They are taking the piss out of people like that. Watching a genocide happening before their eyes seems to have blurred the lines a bit when it comes to that but honestly I find it hard to condemn them for their approach given the amount of shit going the other way. Its no coincidence they push harder on this stuff in US than at home too. This is the second case since Coachella where the British police have tried to dig up something they've said to charge them with.

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