We fucking win the fucking league title 2016-17: Page 33 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

We fucking win the fucking league title 2016-17

Qwiss

Last time we won the league we made an astute January signing.

We are beyond a January signing from league winners at the moment though.

y va marquer

Are you arguing that we would not have won the league in 2004 if we had not signed Reyes in January?

USArsenal

yeah, we weren't gonna win with only Henry, Pires, Bergy, Vieira, Freddie, etc.

y va marquer

😆

y va marquer

We're only 2 points better off after 16 games this season compared to last.
Same amount of wins, just an exchange of a draw for a loss seperating the points totals.

The win over Chelsea is the only tangible evidence of standout improvement.

I can't wait to see how we do over Christmas because I think that will make or break us.

Ray

I think our biggest improvement has been Sanchez, having a striker up front who can win a game on his own and is currently the top scorer in the PL. Titles are won with a basic starting point of that type of striker.

Clrnc

y va marquer wrote:
Season after season of proof that January signings make no discernible difference to results and certainly no evidence that players signed in January by City, Chelsea, United and even Leicester played any decisive part in them winning the league.

What? So people like Arshavin, Henrik Larsson, Dugarry, Sturridge, Arteta, Vidic made no discernible difference to results and didn't aid their club causes for winning the league/avoiding relegation etc? That's just to name a few.

If you don't try to improve, you stay the same. It's not a 100% guarantee but it's better than sitting around and doing nothing. You spot a weakness at say LB, you try to get a player in to help out your cause. If you can't find any, fair enough but you have less "luck" if you don't even try. Even Monreal helped us loads the season he joined.

y va marquer

Clrnc wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
Season after season of proof that January signings make no discernible difference to results and certainly no evidence that players signed in January by City, Chelsea, United and even Leicester played any decisive part in them winning the league.

What? So people like Arshavin, Henrik Larsson, Dugarry, Sturridge, Arteta, Vidic made no discernible difference to results and didn't aid their club causes for winning the league/avoiding relegation etc? That's just to name a few.

If you don't try to improve, you stay the same. It's not a 100% guarantee but it's better than sitting around and doing nothing. You spot a weakness at say LB, you try to get a player in to help out your cause. If you can't find any, fair enough but you have less "luck" if you don't even try. Even Monreal helped us loads the season he joined.

The argument that you were making was not that making a signing was better than doing nothing.....
You said an "astute" signing would be a determining factor in our chances of winning the league.

I'm not arguing against January signings - I'm pointing to the fact that there is no objective, or even much subjective evidence, of a January signing driving City, Chelsea, United or Leicester to winning the league.
I would argue that our results to now coupled with our results to mid / late January are far more of a determining factor as regards winning the league, and that the continued acclimatisation, integration and improvement of Xhaka, Elneny, Perez , the return of Mustafi and Welbeck, are far more critical in determining our results and final league position than any Jan signing.

So far the additions we made in the summer may have marginally improved us, but the real difference to our season has been playing Sanchez as the striker instead of Giroud

y va marquer

Ray wrote:
I think our biggest improvement has been Sanchez, having a striker up front who can win a game on his own and is currently the top scorer in the PL. Titles are won with a basic starting point of that type of striker.

Just saw this, I agree.

Clrnc

y va marquer wrote:
The argument that you were making was not that making a signing was better than doing nothing.....
You said an "astute" signing would be a determining factor in our chances of winning the league.

I'm not arguing against January signings - I'm pointing to the fact that there is no objective, or even much subjective evidence, of a January signing driving City, Chelsea, United or Leicester to winning the league.
I would argue that our results to now coupled with our results to mid / late January are far more of a determining factor as regards winning the league, and that the continued acclimatisation, integration and improvement of Xhaka, Elneny, Perez , the return of Mustafi and Welbeck, are far more critical in determining our results and final league position than any Jan signing.

So far the additions we made in the summer may have marginally improved us, but the real difference to our season has been playing Sanchez as the striker instead of Giroud

My 2 points isn't mutually exclusive. I disagree that entirely that no january signings ever made a discernible difference to results, that's completely untrue and I'm not sure how you can justify that. There's enough examples over the years to show how a good reinforcement can help to kickstart results and morale. Arshavin is the biggest example of that. With regards to winning the league, look no further than Henrik Larsson for United in the 06-07 season. I am sure there are many other examples that might not be obvious to all, but for example you cannot simply dismiss the Reyes signing as nothing. He provided much needed depth and quality for us to compete in all 4 competitions. Imagine if we have to continuously playing Bergkamp, Henry and the first teamers those days in those matches. The fatigue and chances of injury could have curtailed our season.

I think your 2nd statement made more sense. Internal improvements can be more of a factor than external reinforcements, but we have also seen over the years how we have never managed to make that work for the last 12 years and I'm not sure Wenger is the man to magically improve a team in the event that we are trailing by 9points at the turn of the year. The margins at the top end are always very close and like you said, our summer signings have improved us so any sort of further improvements no matter how marginal is always welcomed. Think Mustafi's impact is severely underrated in this case as well.

Klaus

You can flip the argument and conclude that those clubs who are most willing to reinforce in January then go on to win the league the following years. Matic played a key role for Chelsea when they last won, for instance. He's propelling them towards a second title at the moment.

Regardless of how many January signings who have proven to have a significant immediate impact, this isn't an argument about statistics. It's about what we need and what the squad is lacking. You get two transfer windows each year to address this problem. If you don't use them then you're neither doing your job in the long or the short term perspective.

y va marquer

Clrnc wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
The argument that you were making was not that making a signing was better than doing nothing.....
You said an "astute" signing would be a determining factor in our chances of winning the league.

I'm not arguing against January signings - I'm pointing to the fact that there is no objective, or even much subjective evidence, of a January signing driving City, Chelsea, United or Leicester to winning the league.
I would argue that our results to now coupled with our results to mid / late January are far more of a determining factor as regards winning the league, and that the continued acclimatisation, integration and improvement of Xhaka, Elneny, Perez , the return of Mustafi and Welbeck, are far more critical in determining our results and final league position than any Jan signing.

So far the additions we made in the summer may have marginally improved us, but the real difference to our season has been playing Sanchez as the striker instead of Giroud

My 2 points isn't mutually exclusive. I disagree that entirely that no january signings ever made a discernible difference to results, that's completely untrue and I'm not sure how you can justify that. curtailed our season.

I think your 2nd statement made more sense. Internal improvements can be more of a factor than external reinforcements, but we have also seen over the years how we have never managed to make that work for the last 12 years and I'm not sure Wenger is the man to magically improve a team in the event that we are trailing by 9points at the turn of the year. The margins at the top end are always very close and like you said, our summer signings have improved us so any sort of further improvements no matter how marginal is always welcomed. Think Mustafi's impact is severely underrated in this case as well.

Here's the article where they produced the data to support the case that Jan signings make no ddiscernible difference to results over the following months - taking results and data spread over 10 seasons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/11310309/January-transfer-window-who-uses-it-who-spends-the-most-and-does-it-actually-work.html

You may disagree and perhaps do alternative research to support your view but please do not go down the road of saying my point of view makes no sense.

I'm easily the most sensible, level headed person on here 😆

y va marquer

Klaus wrote:
You can flip the argument and conclude that those clubs who are most willing to reinforce in January then go on to win the league the following years. Matic played a key role for Chelsea when they last won, for instance. He's propelling them towards a second title at the moment.

Regardless of how many January signings who have proven to have a significant immediate impact, this isn't an argument about statistics. It's about what we need and what the squad is lacking. You get two transfer windows each year to address this problem. If you don't use them then you're neither doing your job in the long or the short term perspective.

I've repeatedly said that I wasn't making an argument against signing players in January.
Again my point is that a view that is accepted as an indisputable fact on here - that our transfer activity in January will determine our fortunes for this season - is to my mind wishful thinking as opposed to the logical opinion that most see it to be.

Klaus

Oh, I wasn't referring to you specifically Y va. I apologise if it came across that way. I was speaking in broad terms. I read an article a while back (not the Telegraph article you linked to above, which I thought was reasonable) that essentially said January signings are pointless, and to me it carries the same amount of truth as the claim: "Alexis Sanchez didn't score 20 league goals last year so he's not going to do it now either".

I agree that in terms of this season we're past the point where huge improvements can be made through addition. We could still see a positive influence somewhere, especially if we sign someone who's capable of passing the ball under pressure in attacking zones, and I think it's worth exploring. I agree that how the players who are already here develop will have the biggest impact on the outcome though. Xhaka in particular cannot afford to look as hit and miss during the winter and spring.

y va marquer

I guess I'm firmly in the camp that it's only truly exceptional attacking players, either as summer or winter signings, that can elevate this team into league winners.
That goes beyond "astute" into the realm of a " truly spectacular" signing

Rex

I agree with pretty much all your points there, Ev. We have two top class players in our front 4 in Özil and Alexis. We need 3. You can get away with one lesser player, but not two. With Alexis now firmly established as a striker the focus for me has shifted though from an out and out striker to a wide forward. That's why I have been calling for us to rescue James for months. 🙂
We need Reuses and Jameses to elevate us rather than Draxlers. Alternative is to get a Benzema or an Aubameyang and shift Alexis back out wide. IMO we have a good, deep squad, but we still lack a top class player or two, and especially in our front line.

Tony Montana

We're always lacking 2 top players aren't we?

Every year we make signings but they're never enough.

Rex

That's not really true though, is it? I'd say that for a long time we used to say '1 or 2 class players' when in reality it was probably closer to 4 or 5. You also have to have the rest of the squad up to a certain standard, although not necessarily top class. Over the years we have carried some god awful players!
Right now, I'd say that we have a very strong, deep squad. We don't really have any duds who play significantly (Jenkinson and Gabriel being pretty damn close though). We are, however, still in the situation where we have exactly 2 top class players for our front 4 positions, and IMO that is one class player short of the squad being properly suited for fighting for top spot in our main 2 competitions.

goon

We need one or two players more because our current lot can't match up to Pedro, Victor Moses and Gary Cahill? Or is it Lallana, Origi and Milner that we can't compete with?

I don't buy it. In terms of ability this squad is more than competitive and any shortfall in terms of performances is down to the manager not getting the balance or the chemistry right. For me the issue is not external, the issue is that Wenger isn't getting the most out of the current crop of players.

Sicario

Lose v City= no title for us

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