Game of thrones thread (spoilers): Page 14 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Game of thrones thread (spoilers)

ElGeniodeOviedo

Klaus wrote:
El Genio de Oviedo wrote:
Lost was idiotic because it's time travel approach made no sense logically. GoT's seems better- "the ink is already dry", or the past is already set.

But the obvious implication is that the future is already written too. If the ink of the past is already dry then there's no way for Brandon to avoid warging back in time and frying Hodor's brain in the future. If a future event is written into the past then they're acting out a script that can't happen any other way.

I agree with bands. People should just avoid time-travelling plots altogether because the paradoxes quickly become impossible to overlook. Which means you basically have two choices: make everything about those paradoxes or ignore them altogether. Either option is incredibly poor storytelling in my opinion.

Well, yes, the future is written. It's determined by the past...

Okay, on a serious note, I'll concede to you that the time paradox-logic that the show has demonstrated thus far does allow for further shenanigans that would hurt the show in terms of seriousness and credibility. Bran causing, for example, the Mad king's madness as some have speculated would been outright risible and would make the series Lost 2.0

I actually think Bran=Bran (or perhaps several other Brans) is more believable than Bran=Bloodraven. Bloodraven is an actual person with an actual history, ie. someone raised him, he was born to someone, and so on. Bran has an actual backstory as well. When von Sydow says "become me" on the show, he's likely referring to some shared ability of greenseers.

For bookreaders (and show watchers as he's been mentioned and shown there via flashback) I reckon Howland Reed will eventually become part of Bran's arc as someone of potential greenseeing ability and importance to other arcs (Jon's).

Also, very much doubt the character Biggus refers to will appear, and I do not believe he is Benjen Stark in the books either. I suspect Benjen will appear to save Bran and Meera as I've previously mentioned (prediction, not a spoiler).

Klaus

El Genio de Oviedo wrote:
Well, yes, the future is written. It's determined by the past...

This is starting to feel like Maxwell's idea that all you need to accurately predict the future is to know the speed and direction of all the atoms in the world...

El Genio de Oviedo wrote:
I actually think Bran=Bran (or perhaps several other Brans) is more believable than Bran=Bloodraven. Bloodraven is an actual person with an actual history, ie. someone raised him, he was born to someone, and so on. Bran has an actual backstory as well. When von Sydow says "become me" on the show, he's likely referring to some shared ability of greenseers.

Yeah, I like this theory too. I don't think Coldhands will make an appearance either. There was plenty of opportunity to introduce him in the story last season if he had been an important character, but they didn't. Instead they altered seemingly pointless scenes just to not include him. He's probably someone who will be skipped over on the show, much like Lady Stoneheart.

Klaus

By the way, speaking of altering events - were we supposed to believe that the man who the children of the forest transformed into the first white walker was the Night's King in human form?

I thought the whole scene felt a bit banal, by the way. The walkers haven't previously been handled all that well on the show, but this really stripped them of all their mystery and appeal. And it also means that their vulnerability to valyrian steel makes absolutely no sense. The children of the forest were afraid of men, so they created monsters who shatter at the mere sight of a valyrian blade to counter them, during a time when Valyria still existed and valyrian swords were a dime a dozen?

Burnwinter

Yeah, after holding them in abeyance for a lot of the series as the probable main antagonist, it felt as if they were immediately stripped of a lot of their mystique.

They do have the option of further flashbacks to fix that problem (eg by fleshing out the personal history of the Night's King).

ElGeniodeOviedo

Definitely raised more questions than answered them. Worth pointing out that we keep calling the leader of the White Walkers on the show "the Night King" but there is a seperate Night King in the books and is almost certainly not related to the leader of the White Walkers at all.

One way around the problems you two rightly raise is that the First Men wielded bronze weapons. The Andals, who arrived later, brought iron, so there is the possibility of ignorance (?) on the part of the Children I suppose.

Some have said the man transformed on the show resembles a Stark. Given the Stark's pedigrees as greenseers and the fact that evidently the Night King on the show is a greenseer (by the fact he was able to touch and see Bran) this suggests that the Stark's have an even closer relationship with the White Walkers.

Gazza M

the episode packed an emotional punch, but as i said it opens the door to a lot of nonsense story telling. every piece of GOT news i read now is rife with time travel theories. tv shows usually go off a cliff once you introduce this crap

Burnwinter

More broadly you've got a Stark (Ice) and a Targaryen (Fire) in the R+L hypothesis haven't you.

I'm sure I haven't thought about this nearly as hard as a lot of people, but it'd be symmetry if the Starks were as closely linked to the White Walkers as the Targaryens are to the dragons.

Claudius

The dragons will burn every last walker.
I really hate time travel in tv and movies (despite T1 and T2 being amongst my favorite movies). If Bran has been the cause of major story arcs, then the storytelling will suffer as it will feel like characters are losing influence, and are just subject to this god.

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
The dragons will burn every last walker.

Unless of course the Night's King gain control over them. Or what if he raises dead dragons as wights?

El Genio de Oviedo wrote:
Some have said the man transformed on the show resembles a Stark. Given the Stark's pedigrees as greenseers and the fact that evidently the Night King on the show is a greenseer (by the fact he was able to touch and see Bran) this suggests that the Stark's have an even closer relationship with the White Walkers.

Yes, good point. There was some speculation that the Night's King in the books was actually a Stark ancestor (one named Brandon, interestingly enough, considering the on-show King's greenseeing ability), but no one could prove it since his name were stricken from all the records. I think it was Old Nan who related the story to Bran.

I've always been fascinated by the Night's King story because there's so much that is unanswered. Did he willingly become a walker? And who was the pale woman he fell in love with? We've never seen any female white walkers. And when he was defeated, did he die or did he just withdraw and disappear?

ElGeniodeOviedo

I doubt there will be much of a "final battle", and if there is, it'll either end in a draw before much blood is drawn or with the total obliveration of both parties. Most likely the former though.

I've never been a fan of the New Criticism in terms of literary theory; you can tell a lot from a work by looking at its author. Martin is environmentalist, peacenik, atheist child of the 1960's. This series will end with Jon Snow bringing some sort of symbolic "balance" between both forces through peace, likely negotiation. That's in line with Martin's fundamental character.

Burnwinter

Have you read much of Martin's other work? The reliable theme is the humanisation of evil, but some of his short stories are very dark.

I'd agree that the story isn't likely to end with a "restoration of order" or coronation a la Lord of the Rings, but I think there's a confrontation bigger than King's Landing in the story's future.

banduan

I do think there'll be a final battle but I also believe it'll be a false climax.

ElGeniodeOviedo

Burnwinter wrote:
Have you read much of Martin's other work? The reliable theme is the humanisation of evil, but some of his short stories are very dark.

I'd agree that the story isn't likely to end with a "restoration of order" or coronation a la Lord of the Rings, but I think there's a confrontation bigger than King's Landing in the story's future.

I haven't read any of it, no. I am vaguely familiar with the content of the Dunk and Egg novellas and "the Ice Dragon" but from secondhand sources.

I don't think the story necessarily becomes any less dark or violent just because the end is resolved anticlimactically through some sort of twist instead of the looming battle everyone is expecting. Well, to a small degree yes perhaps, but we've already seen such darkness and violence in the series leading up to that point that I don't think anyone will be able to go around labeling Martin a soft touch, so to speak.

Burnwinter

Yeah, the "grimdark" incident doesn't necessarily point to grimdark overarching themes or philosophy. In fact that tendency to always humanise and complicate the antagonists is a rather rosy-eyed one in some ways.

GRRM's short sf fiction collected as Sandkings (brilliant title story, too) is really worth seeking out, and contains a number of stories with extremely bleak premises and events. I haven't read any of the ASoIaF side books, opened a Tuf novel once but it didn't seem good, and his vampire novel Fevre Dream does have the kind of balanced, humanist ending you're talking about.

Qwiss

Gazza M wrote:
the episode packed an emotional punch, but as i said it opens the door to a lot of nonsense story telling. every piece of GOT news i read now is rife with time travel theories. tv shows usually go off a cliff once you introduce this crap

I know, the shite talk has reached fever pitch.

Qwiss

Was gonna put this in tucker but realised it was spoilery

Burnwinter

I suppose the trouble is he's not hanging in there, as it were.

QuincyAbeyie

AVClub's dead pool for episode 6:

2-1 High Sparrow, Septa Unella
3-1 Loras Tyrell
4-1 Kevan Lannister
5-1 Meera Reed
8-1 Tommen Baratheon
10-1 Daario Naharis, any Greyjoy
15-1 Sam Tarly, Randyll Tarly, Gilly, Greyworm, Missandei, Varys, Tyrion, any wolf
20-1 The Mountain
25-1 Margaery Tyrell, Olenna Tyrell, Littlefinger
50-1 The Night's King, Jaime Lannister
100-1 Bran, any dragon

Personally think that Tyrion is too low while Olenna and Margaery are too high.

Mirth

'any wolf' 😆

Qwiss

Burnwinter wrote:
I suppose the trouble is he's not hanging in there, as it were.

hey oohh

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