The Tuesday Club: Page 4 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

The Tuesday Club

Tony Montana

Ricky1985 wrote:
Excuse the awful pun, but the world isn't black and white, mate. You interpret a situation how you interpret it, if you're offended, you're offended, but I think some people are conditioned to almost react without thinking. Without seeing that separate situation for what it really is.

Conditioned by what?

And again, how can you tell what the intentions are all the time? Like you said yourself, it's not always black and white.

Ricky1985

Conditioned by society, by modern culture, by the wave of political correctness.

How do you ever know if someone's offending you, unless they're outright calling you a twat or something? It's intuition, it's your internal response - what else is there to go on. There is no rule book.

Tony Montana

We all live in different societies but like you said you're either offended or not. It's a quick reaction.

If someone mentions a joke about your colour and you're offended then blaming political correctness for your taking offense is a bit naff and a cop out. Take it from me as someone who has occasionally been at the end of stupid jokes and stereotypes. Some of them I just swept under the carpet and said, 'ok let it be'. It's no massive deal and you move on. But the jokes were in poor taste. A cheap laugh at a people. The intention was to have a light hearted joke but then it was also to laugh at the people who could do nothing about their skin or disability etc. This is why the intention thing is sometimes hard to pin down. Sometimes the people who are not politically correct gone mad, need to take a step back and just say ok I won't go there. It works both ways. But i'm not saying you can't have a joke about race or culture. Some of the stand ups i've seen have been excellent and they've had cultural jokes etc.

If they said those jokes (the ones in poor taste I mean) 50 years ago when political correctness barely existed then you wouldn't say it was ok to say it then. If it's wrong then it was always wrong.

There's a reason why political correctness exists now, and it's not because of jumped up black people.

Captain

It's because of jumped up white people.

Biggus

Tony Montana wrote:
Biggus wrote:
Being black now is like being queer, more of a political statement a state of mind.

You're not black so I think you should shut the fuck up about that.

It's great you think that 'you've understood us' but you haven't so spare me the throwaway sweeping statement.

I think you misunderstood what I said Tony, I didn't claim to understand "us" you see for me there is no "us" and "them" just people that I take on their individual merits.

Tony Montana wrote:
You are either black or you're not. It's not a political statement or a state of mind it's actually a fact. Sagna is black, Fabregas is not.

I don't think you should categorise people like that, what about Clichy Chamakh or Gilberto Silva?
This is prominent Australian aborigional activist Michael Mansill

How do they fit into your neat pigeonholes.

Tony Montana wrote:
Yes we all want to live in a world where everything is fine and really there's no prejudice, racism or stereotyping and when minorities (basically non-white people) complain it's because we are essentially OTT or exaggerating but that's bullshit. Prejudice and racism didn't end in 1963, it still happens. Don't try to make out like i'm saying what happened at Orient is a racist act but stop acting like everything is ok.

I didn't comment on any particular incident.

Tony Montana wrote:
You are obviously, without doubt, one of the most intelligent, if not the most intelligent, poster on onemoreinthetolly/arsenal-mania. So I'm actually gutted (really I am) that you've made such rubbish statements. Passing off black people and lumping them with queers like it's nothing is stupid. You have to be stupid to believe black people are not real but simply a state of mind. You have to be stupid to think that you could get far politically being something that's supposedly not real in being black when you could easily concoct another state of mind in making it that people are all one. But you are not stupid are you Biggus? Just because black people are in politics and promote black issues in politics does not mean that's all there is to being black. Neither are the millions of Africans thinking, 'no we're not black but really this is state of mind'.

Give me a break.

Oh come on Tony raise your game, I never equated blacks with queers! being gay doesn't mean you have to be involved in the "queer" scene or "queer" politics, and likewise being black doesn't mean you have to have "black" politics, Obama proved that your sun tan is no barrier to election in a free society, however I wouldn't have fancied his chances if he was another Malcolm Sex.

Generalising millions of people from wherever- of whatever skin pigment by categorising them and speaking for them all is very arrogant and naive Tony, why don't we ask Lagos?

So you give me a break.

Ricky1985 wrote:
Excuse the awful pun, but the world isn't black and white, mate.

😆 Thats the most sensible thing anyone has posted here.

Captain

It's almost as arrogant and naive as attempting to ignore a century's worth of ridicule that informs the offence that people take to specific images/actions on the basis that it is 'just a bit of fun'.

Tony Montana

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
You're not black so I think you should shut the fuck up about that.

It's great you think that 'you've understood us' but you haven't so spare me the throwaway sweeping statement.

I think you misunderstood what I said Tony, I didn't claim to understand "us" you see for me there is no "us" and "them" just people that I take on their individual merits.

We should take people on individual merits but many/most people don't always do this even if it's less extreme than it was. As long as there are differences between people, there will always be a them and us.

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
You are either black or you're not. It's not a political statement or a state of mind it's actually a fact. Sagna is black, Fabregas is not.

I don't think you should categorise people like that, what about Clichy Chamakh or Gilberto Silva?
This is prominent Australian aborigional activist Michael Mansill

How do they fit into your neat pigeonholes.

Clichy and Gilberto are obviously mixed race. In Brazil they have masses of descriptions to label different shades of colour. (Pardo, negro, moreno, branco etc). Both players could be classed in one of those shades. Chamakh is an Arab and Caucasian. Some people who are mixed consider themselves black and that's when it becomes a state of mind/political I guess. You have a point there. But Sagna is obviously black. And black and white people obviously exist whether it fits into your 'we are all one, peace and love magic circle world' or not.

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
Yes we all want to live in a world where everything is fine and really there's no prejudice, racism or stereotyping and when minorities (basically non-white people) complain it's because we are essentially OTT or exaggerating but that's bullshit. Prejudice and racism didn't end in 1963, it still happens. Don't try to make out like i'm saying what happened at Orient is a racist act but stop acting like everything is ok.

I didn't comment on any particular incident.

You commented 'oh, so you have to "be black to be black". It sounded as if you think people who take offence are being OTT.

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
You are obviously, without doubt, one of the most intelligent, if not the most intelligent, poster on onemoreinthetolly/arsenal-mania. So I'm actually gutted (really I am) that you've made such rubbish statements. Passing off black people and lumping them with queers like it's nothing is stupid. You have to be stupid to believe black people are not real but simply a state of mind. You have to be stupid to think that you could get far politically being something that's supposedly not real in being black when you could easily concoct another state of mind in making it that people are all one. But you are not stupid are you Biggus? Just because black people are in politics and promote black issues in politics does not mean that's all there is to being black. Neither are the millions of Africans thinking, 'no we're not black but really this is state of mind'.

Give me a break.

Oh come on Tony raise your game, I never equated blacks with queers! being gay doesn't mean you have to be involved in the "queer" scene or "queer" politics, and likewise being black doesn't mean you have to have "black" politics, Obama proved that your sun tan is no barrier to election in a free society, however I wouldn't have fancied his chances if he was another Malcolm Sex.

Generalising millions of people from wherever- of whatever skin pigment by categorising them and speaking for them all is very arrogant and naive Tony, why don't we ask Lagos?

So you give me a break.

Yeah but you likened the black scene with the queer scene. 'Being black is like being queer' you said. How would you know? You are neither black or queer. I'm speaking for myself. Lagos may well have a different opinion but i'm almost certain he will say that he doesn't care about the blacking up at the Orient game which is exactly what I said lest we forget.

And so what about black politics? The black community (i'm talking more about the US here) has its scene because they choose to have their scene and politics. (You see what I did there? 'Them' are americans and 'we' are non-americans). It's a free country. Why is that a problem? And it's no surprise black people look after their own interests. The American ruling class have been doing that for years and years. Other communities do the same thing the world over based on religion, race, money, social class not necessarily because they hate the other but because they love themselves.

Ricky1985

Tony Montana wrote:
We all live in different societies but like you said you're either offended or not. It's a quick reaction.

If someone mentions a joke about your colour and you're offended then blaming political correctness for your taking offense is a bit naff and a cop out. Take it from me as someone who has occasionally been at the end of stupid jokes and stereotypes. Some of them I just swept under the carpet and said, 'ok let it be'. It's no massive deal and you move on. But the jokes were in poor taste. A cheap laugh at a people. The intention was to have a light hearted joke but then it was also to laugh at the people who could do nothing about their skin or disability etc. This is why the intention thing is sometimes hard to pin down. Sometimes the people who are not politically correct gone mad, need to take a step back and just say ok I won't go there. It works both ways. But i'm not saying you can't have a joke about race or culture. Some of the stand ups i've seen have been excellent and they've had cultural jokes etc.

If they said those jokes (the ones in poor taste I mean) 50 years ago when political correctness barely existed then you wouldn't say it was ok to say it then. If it's wrong then it was always wrong.

There's a reason why political correctness exists now, and it's not because of jumped up black people.

So have I mate, so have we all.

Tony Montana

Ricky1985 wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
We all live in different societies but like you said you're either offended or not. It's a quick reaction.

If someone mentions a joke about your colour and you're offended then blaming political correctness for your taking offense is a bit naff and a cop out. Take it from me as someone who has occasionally been at the end of stupid jokes and stereotypes. Some of them I just swept under the carpet and said, 'ok let it be'. It's no massive deal and you move on. But the jokes were in poor taste. A cheap laugh at a people. The intention was to have a light hearted joke but then it was also to laugh at the people who could do nothing about their skin or disability etc. This is why the intention thing is sometimes hard to pin down. Sometimes the people who are not politically correct gone mad, need to take a step back and just say ok I won't go there. It works both ways. But i'm not saying you can't have a joke about race or culture. Some of the stand ups i've seen have been excellent and they've had cultural jokes etc.

If they said those jokes (the ones in poor taste I mean) 50 years ago when political correctness barely existed then you wouldn't say it was ok to say it then. If it's wrong then it was always wrong.

There's a reason why political correctness exists now, and it's not because of jumped up black people.

So have I mate, so have we all.

Well then there you go. You should know then that what is standard and harmless for one person is not for another person.

Off the top of my head I find the Gooners shouting Yids at Spurs fans harmless, especially as Spurs fans call themselves Yiddos. But there are Jewish Arsenal fans that don't like it. Some don't care but there are some that don't like it.

Biggus

Tony Montana wrote:
You commented 'oh, so you have to "be black to be black". It sounded as if you think people who take offence are being OTT.

No, on the contrary anyone "black or white" has as much right to be offended as anyone has to not be offended.

Tony Montana wrote:
Yeah but you likened the black scene with the queer scene. 'Being black is like being queer' you said.

No I didn't!
I said being "black "or being "queer" (note the inverted commas) was a state of mind, and choice if you will, just like being a socialist or a Christian.
Whereas being of a certain genetic composition or having homosexual tendencies is not.
You don't own the name black any more than I can claim to speak for all Arsenal supporters.

Tony Montana wrote:
And so what about black politics? The black community (i'm talking more about the US here) has its scene because they choose to have their scene and politics. (You see what I did there? 'Them' are americans and 'we' are non-americans). It's a free country. Why is that a problem? And it's no surprise black people look after their own interests. The American ruling class have been doing that for years and years. Other communities do the same thing the world over based on religion, race, money, social class not necessarily because they hate the other but because they love themselves.

I don't disagree with that, I just don't choose to associate with it.
I don't support (or oppose) others just because they have a similar genetic make up to me.

Captain

Historically, "black face" has been a device to portray people of african heritage in a humiliating way; ignorant, lazy and witless.

Ricky asked why someone would get angry at some blokes 'blacking themselves up' and that is more than enough for him to grasp some understanding as to why. Should he choose not to, that's his look out but the other things being discussed here are quite irrelevant to both his query and the thread.

Tony Montana

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
Yeah but you likened the black scene with the queer scene. 'Being black is like being queer' you said.

No I didn't!
I said being "black "or being "queer" (note the inverted commas) was a state of mind, and choice if you will, just like being a socialist or a Christian.
Whereas being of a certain genetic composition or having homosexual tendencies is not.
You don't own the name black any more than I can claim to speak for all Arsenal supporters.

Well I don't own the English language but at the end of the day you have to come to agreed terms and definitions. And I think it's fair to say all sane people know what a black person looks like. Put it this way, we all know Song is black. And yes i'm aware races have mixed over the years.

Biggus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
And so what about black politics? The black community (i'm talking more about the US here) has its scene because they choose to have their scene and politics. (You see what I did there? 'Them' are americans and 'we' are non-americans). It's a free country. Why is that a problem? And it's no surprise black people look after their own interests. The American ruling class have been doing that for years and years. Other communities do the same thing the world over based on religion, race, money, social class not necessarily because they hate the other but because they love themselves.

I don't disagree with that, I just don't choose to associate with it.
I don't support (or oppose) others just because they have a similar genetic make up to me.

Yeah but no one supports that sort of thing. That wasn't the issue.

[/quote]

Biggus

Tony Montana wrote:
Well I don't own the English language but at the end of the day you have to come to agreed terms and definitions. And I think it's fair to say all sane people know what a black person looks like. Put it this way, we all know Song is black. And yes i'm aware races have mixed over the years.

Theres actually more genetic diversity within the people of the continent of Africa then there is between the so called "races" imo when you use the term "black" you're using it in a socio/political context rather than a actual racial one.
Thats what I meant when I wrote that blackness or black conciousness was a state of mind.

Skin colour is a very superficial and nonsensical method of categorising people, but I guess thats your point too.

Tony Montana

Yeah I know ethnically that Africa is very diverse genetically. But racially, a typical man from Zambia is racially the same as a typical Nigerian.

Race:

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

So using the term black is a social, political AND scientific term.

Burnwinter

y va marquer wrote:
I think the line is drawn by the person, or people, who are the subject of the joke.

This pretty much sums it up. It's not as if you get to decide whether or not what you say or do is offensive.

Biggus

As Jimmy Rabbitte said in The Commitments: 'Do you not get it, lads? The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. And the Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin. So say it once, say it loud: I'm black and I'm proud.'

Lets move on....

James

Back on Subject, Alan and Ian's description of Brisbane Road is absolutely spot on 😆

The PA sounded like the daleks. The amount of stupidity i saw going on too was just astounding at times too, including what i mentioned on Twitter for those who follow.

goon

Don't think it warrants a new thread, but Alan Davies presented a Q&A for centrepoint with Wenger, Keown and Winterburn on thursday which is on ATVO, pretty good.

Tayo was there too running around with the microphone.

Ricky1985

It wasn't Tayo, it was a blacked up Keith! 😃

Asterix

Don't know if it got covered elsewhere, but the reports of Szczesney answering fans questions was brilliant:

Fan: Which Arsenal centre backs would you most like to play behind?
Szcz: Bould and Adams

And also a fan asking Arshavin who is the hardest working Arsenal person in traning.
Arshavin (looking and grinning at Fabianski): the goalkeeping coach.

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