can we have a formation discussion thread?

mdgoonah41

i would like to discuss our shape, formation, and how our current players fit into what we are trying to do.

i would conclude that so far, we have played a narrow 4-2-3-1 formation, with coq and cazorla as the 2, alexis, ozil and ramsey as the 3, and either giroud or walcott as the 1. a few players have been moved around, but that is the gist of it. this is the formation a lot of people wanted us to play last year, when we were using that weird 4-1-4-1 formation. however, the 4-2-3-1 has caused a number of issues, as far as i can see:

cazorla is playing centrally instead of ramsey, and he doesn't have the legs or defensive chops to really play as part of the 2, he is better suited to the middle of the 3, which is also ozil's best position
ramsey out wide isn't working, obviously
when walcott plays as the 1, we have no real focal point. for all of giroud's many faults, he at least offers a target and helps with our link up play
we have no width at all. ramsey and alexis both dart inside whenever they can, leaving our only available width at the fullback spots, which causes a problem because it means we have only 2 CBs and coq to break up counter attacks.

the question is, what is the answer? is it really as simple as dropping cazorla and playing ramsey as part of the 2? is he disciplined enough to play this role? what do we do when coq is out, which it appears he will be for a little while. we do not have anyone that can replicate what he does.

do we play a flat 3 in midfield and try to offer more protection there? do we, gasp, go back to flamteta?

how can we improve our lack of width? should ox be starting over ramsey if wenger is going to stick with cazorla central?

should we be looking to change our formation? maybe play 2 up top and do big man/little man to try and create more matchup issues for opposing centerbacks?

right now, we are way too predictable. all teams need to do is clog the middle of the pitch and we are boned, because our forwards refuse to go wide and create any kind of width at all.

what say you?

Irishgunner

I'd play:

--------------Cech
Bellerin---gabby---kos---monreal
Walcott---ramsey---coq---Chambo
--------Ozil---Sanchez

Go back to the invincibles template (even though quality is obviously lacking)

Klaus

mdgoonah41 wrote:
is it really as simple as dropping cazorla and playing ramsey as part of the 2? is he disciplined enough to play this role?

We're already overloading the central area of the pitch by telling Ramsey to drift in, which means that Wenger doesn't think we get enough out of Coquelin and Cazorla either. And we don't, to be fair.

But more to the point: Ramsey and Arteta were a better midfield than Coquelin and Cazorla has ever been. Which means Ramsey works fine under the right conditions. There's one solution to this, and one solution only. You either make Ramsey and Coquelin work together or you keep the better player and replace the lesser one. You can't build a team based on halfassed compromises.

mdgoonah41 wrote:
how can we improve our lack of width?

Play actual wingers. We've got one of the best ones in Premier League who's either been riding the bench or playing up front for us this season. Any argument that Walcott is weak defensively goes out the window when you consider that we're abandoning the flank anyway right now.

The problem is that Wenger doesn't want width of course. We're not narrow because the players can't handle basic instructions. We're narrow by design.

Rorz

I think the current formation is fine, its the players that are in the wrong positions. He may not like it, but I want to see Theo on the right wing again with Giroud central. The Ramsey/Cazorla issue is hampering us in the middle - in my opinion a disciplined Ramsey beside Coquelin, if it could be made to work, should be the best midfield pairing, and the current formation allows us to have Ozil in his preferred place too.

Claudius

Rorz wrote:
I think the current formation is fine, its the players that are in the wrong positions. He may not like it, but I want to see Theo on the right wing again with Giroud central. The Ramsey/Cazorla issue is hampering us in the middle - in my opinion a disciplined Ramsey beside Coquelin, if it could be made to work, should be the best midfield pairing, and the current formation allows us to have Ozil in his preferred place too.

It's as simple as this.

y va marquer

If only it were

I am Arsenal Till I Die

Wenger for the longest time got his team to be grater than the sum of it's parts. We've had players like Gervinho and Chamakh turn out for us regularly and yet we managed to finish above teams like Liverpool and Spurs who spent millions trying to have a crack at the top 4.

Wenger has been letting down the club and the fans in the transfer window since years, but he somehow managed to scrape the bare minimum. But now it's the exact opposite. He's not even getting the best out of what we have at the club. And that is the most infuriating part.

First he buys the best #10 in the world and then decides to play him behind a player like Giroud for 2 seasons in a row. Ramsey who made up for Giroud's lack of movement with his vertical runs is now playing on the right wing and clogging up the centre restricting the space Ozil operates in. Sanchez who scored 25 goals last season is also playing more like a midfielder than ever before receiving the ball near the half way line. Who makes runs in behind to actually utilize the ability of the best fucking player at your club? Theo Walcott? A man who's played a handful of games at centre forward? Then he goes on to play a midget in centre midfield who has zero ball winning ability and offers nothing going forward because he doesn't have the running power someone like Ramsey or Jack would provide. Where is the balance in the side?

At the moment, we don't have an identity. We're neither a short passing side, nor a possession team, nor a counter attacking team. We can't keep possession in the final third because our centre forwards have the first touch of rapists. We're not a short passing side because our movement is ridiculously poor. We'll never be a counter attacking side because we don't press or have 1 ball winner in the side who happens to be our deepest midfielder.

Wenger just needs to get back to the basics. Swallow some pride, drop Cazorla and put our best central midfielder in his position. Enough with shoe horning his favorite players in the team. But he won't change the way we play because he's too inflexible. It's like an old film on loop.🙁

Daz

Anzac will be gutted he missed out on this thread.

I think the 4231 is ok as well, but Ramsey needs to go back in the middle with Coq (or old man Arty until he's back). As much as I like the idea of Walcott at 9, I'm not confident it can work. So Olly should go back to 9 with Walcott on the right. Ox can be first backup for both wings.

Doc

4231 is fine ..In any variant of a 442 I would be seriously worried that Coquelin would be left out to dry in the midfield.

I don't think the Caz/Coq partnership is as bad as people make it out.. it wouldn't be a major issue if we had a functioning front 4.

However, we have scored 5 goals this season in the league.. take out the 2 own goals and we have scored 3 goals in 6 games :ffs: that is the most important problem right there. Bringing Ramsey into CM is one of the obvious solutions, so we have to try it.. I don't like the Ramsey/Coq partnership but if it gets goals and causes issues elsewhere then so be it. It's worth the shot.

Also it kills are 2 major problems with one stone, the other being Ramsey on the wings is horrendous.. the constant cutting inside, especially with Alexis on the other wing drifting in as well isn't working at all, the opposition defence have it way to easy. This team is not good enough technically to narrow the pitch like that and expect we can consistently play through the opposition back line.

Shady

The players and manager aren't good enough. The formation is fine.

Qwiss

Doc wrote:
4231 is fine ..In any variant of a 442 I would be seriously worried that Coquelin would be left out to dry in the midfield.

But we already pretty much play a 2 man midfield. Ozil is more or less a second striker and doesn't offer any protection to Coquelin. Whats more with Cazorla beside him its hard to imagine how Coq would be asked to do any more with different CM beside him. Our options of Ramsey or Arteta both offer more support for Coq, even Flamini.

Gurgen

As I said in the other thread, if Wenger insists on these players, I'd try the diamond:

--------Coquelin--------
Ramsey---------Cazorla
---------Özil-----------
Theo-------------Sanchez

Still crap, but it would give us more movement up front and the back three CMs would be able to interchange better.

Qwiss

Our current formation is this
----------------- Cech -----------------
----------- Gab/Mert --- Kos------------
Bellerin ------------------------ Monreal
------------- Coquelin ---------------
---------------------- Cazorla -------
---------- Ramsey ------ Sanchez------

----------------- Ozil --------------

--------------- Walcott --------------

lorddulaarsenal

I'd like to see some kind of 4-4-1-1

---------AS/TW/OG
---------------Ozil
Cazorla-Coq-Ramsey-Chambo
Nacho--Kos--Gabriel-Bellerin
-------------Cech

Have Nacho make overlapping runs and combining with Santi
Let Chambo run at the fullback and provide width
Give Ozil a free role
Get Alexis or Theo as close to goal as possible

I am Arsenal Till I Die

Qwiss! wrote:
Our current formation is this
----------------- Cech -----------------
----------- Gab/Mert --- Kos------------
Bellerin ------------------------ Monreal
------------- Coquelin ---------------
---------------------- Cazorla -------
---------- Ramsey ------ Sanchez------

----------------- Ozil --------------

--------------- Walcott --------------

Add a second row and 2 props next to Cech and we have a rugby formation. 😆 😆 😆

🙁 🙁

I am Arsenal Till I Die

Gurgen wrote:
As I said in the other thread, if Wenger insists on these players, I'd try the diamond:

--------Coquelin--------
Ramsey---------Cazorla
---------Özil-----------
Theo-------------Sanchez

Still crap, but it would give us more movement up front and the back three CMs would be able to interchange better.

Replace Santi with Jack when he's back and that, IMO, is our best line up.

Claudius

looks like a tippus-tappus festival to me.

Qwiss

I Am Arsenal Till I Die wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Our current formation is this
----------------- Cech -----------------
----------- Gab/Mert --- Kos------------
Bellerin ------------------------ Monreal
------------- Coquelin ---------------
---------------------- Cazorla -------
---------- Ramsey ------ Sanchez------

----------------- Ozil --------------

--------------- Walcott --------------

Add a second row and 2 props next to Cech and we have a rugby formation. 😆 😆 😆

🙁 🙁

Thats how we got over our Stoke issue. 😆

Gurgen

Qwiss! wrote:
Our current formation is this
----------------- Cech -----------------
----------- Gab/Mert --- Kos------------
Bellerin ------------------------ Monreal
------------- Coquelin ---------------
---------------------- Cazorla -------
---------- Ramsey ------ Sanchez------

----------------- Ozil --------------

--------------- Walcott --------------

That's actually a very accurate rendition, fucking hell 😆

The man who puts us through this every week once won the league unbeaten. Seems surreal.