laymans wrote:

If Wilshere could play for us, the same role he does for England.

We're currently using a DM (Coquelin) with an offensive role-d CM (Cazorla/Ramsey), we might be better of with a DLP (Wilshere) and defensive role-d CM (Coquelin).

I like this idea a lot, even though I've been on the play Jack high up the pitch bandwagon. 

marv3llous wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

An assumption that if you offer immaculate personal terms and pay over a "reasonable" transfer fee you can buy players like Griezmann, Zlatan and Higuain.

Personally feel that its not like the club is in the dark over the terms that are needed to get these players. These 3 or any other players who we felt would have improved us. The point is, we never go public with our interest, so its easy for us in here to say "we didnt go for them" and the point is that since we dont actually know how much is exactly needed to make these players move, we cant blame the club for not paying it.

Been saying it many times over this window - out of all the players that didnt move to the "elite" clubs in this window, i probably wouldnt have any here for the prices they ended up going for, because basically none of them would have improved our situation by large enough margin to be able to mount a proper title push. So we have just ended up wasting our money. That's what Liverpool and Spurs do. We laugh at them for this. We need to be smart with our money. If the quality is not there, better save it.

Great post and I agree 1000%.

Clubs at our level. I.E. Clubs trying to break the Chelsea and Man City hegemony.

Spurs yearly, Liverpool yearly, United these last 3 years do exactly what people wished we did.

Take gambles and over pay.

We laugh at them for this. Like super LOLs every single year.

Agree that the club are succinctly aware who is available, who isn't and for how much. Seeing as we don't leak every story to the press, the fans assume the club sat on their arse.

marv3llous wrote:

That's what Liverpool and Spurs do. We laugh at them for this. We need to be smart with our money. If the quality is not there, better save it.

Thats how they ended up with the likes of Suarez, Bale, Modric, etc Their problems aren't generally their purchases but retention of the ones who come good. I wouldn't have objected to us taking a £32m punt on Benteke if Bemzema, etc weren't available. Maybe it doesn't work out but its sure as hell better than not even trying.

Tbf their purchases are shocking as well. The amount of dross both clubs have spent in the past, particularly with the Suarez and Bale money, is embarrassing.

But we're a better run club with a better scouting network and infrastructure in place so I don't see why we need to worry about signing new players. Sure we might sign a few duds for £20m but that's par for the course these days.

Thats what I'm saying, you can't win a game you wont play.

What exactly are we saving it for Mav? Do you think the kinds of players we need are going to be any cheaper in the next transfer window or the one after?

Wenger has dug us this hole and he's clearly not capable of dragging us out of it.

Dare I mention the signing of Welbeck and the fact that within months there was a backlash about the money that we spent on him?
Forget about from where he came because objectively that is not relevant.

If you go down the road of £20m here and there you'll probably end up with more Welbeck's and Chambers than anyone who's really going to turn our fortunes around.

Quite simply we're going to have to spend Sterling amounts on Sterling types to compete with City and Chelsea.

Quality is there. £50-60 mill would have gotten us a class wide forward. Guaranteed.

y va marquer wrote:

Dare I mention the signing of Welbeck and the fact that within months there was a backlash about the money that we spent on him?
Forget about from where he came because objectively that is not relevant.

If you go down the road of £20m here and there you'll probably end up with more Welbeck's and Chambers than anyone who's really going to turn our fortunes around.

Quite simply we're going to have to spend Sterling amounts on Sterling types to compete with City and Chelsea.

But that's the thing we are ignoring the middle of the market. Welbeck cost half what a decent player cost because he's rubbish.

Wenger wot risk a large sum. He wants gauranteed quality for £35m but those deals are almost non-existant now. It's £60m for a top player this summer.

Qwiss! wrote:

marv3llous wrote:

That's what Liverpool and Spurs do. We laugh at them for this. We need to be smart with our money. If the quality is not there, better save it.

Thats how they ended up with the likes of Suarez, Bale, Modric, etc Their problems aren't generally their purchases but retention of the ones who come good. I wouldn't have objected to us taking a £32m punt on Benteke if Bemzema, etc weren't available. Maybe it doesn't work out but its sure as hell better than not even trying.

But why buy a Benteke, if you already have Giroud who is 1:1 carbon copy of him in terms of output? Only one of them can play at once.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Quality is there. £50-60 mill would have gotten us a class wide forward. Guaranteed.

Really? Which one of the big teams sells their star players for money? Every notable upgrade on Giroud, costing this much, is already at a top club.

Götze who is at best 4th choice out wide, Costa before he signed for Bayern, Sterling before he signed for City, maybe Reus, Griezmann and then there is Draxler and Pedro.

...but I know. If they were available, Wenger would have signed them. (This is called begging the question)

Again ... big clubs do not sell their players for money. Its impossible for us to go in and outright buy a player from Bayern, Barca, Real, PSG or City. They only sell them, in case they dont want them anymore. If that was the case, you would see transfers like City trying to buy someone off Bayern for £100m. They have the money. They need the players. But it doesnt work like that. Instead, they also have to rely on having to bottomfeed on smaller fishes. So they cherry pick the best ones and get Otamendi from Valencia, De Bruyne from Wolfsburg and Sterling from Liverpool. All for very big fees, fees which we would be able to replicate, but the success will always swing it their way.

Second ... players like Sterling or Pedro or Costa are not options for us, if those same big clubs come calling. We are not in consideration, since we do not match their glamour, their success or their wages. Of course, we could match their wages, but the first two aspects will still swing it their way.

Third ... as i already said - every big club in the world knows an outlay it would take to get a top, top player to join their side. If someone from a slightly smaller club (Reus, Griezmann etc) didnt move, its for a good reason. That reason being, that the outlay is way too big to justify the risk. Or the fact that a player doesnt actually want to move, as moving from clubs like Atletico or Dortmund to Arsenal for example is a lateral move and they may be angling for a bigger move instead, next summer.

That's the whole reason why Wenger is so secretive and so stingy with the money. He knows that as soon as there is a world class player who is semi-available, he will get gazumped by one of the big boys. He needs to calculate, not panic, keep getting the results and add whatever quality he can. If we starts blowing our transfer budget on average players, he will never have any money to do the big deals, should they become available. It worked the last two windows with Özil and Alexis, didnt quite work this well this summer, although Cech is pretty much in the same category in terms of quality and impact on the team. People are only hysterical, because unlike last 2 windows, we ended up with money left over.

Like I said, begging the question. Look it up.

marv3llous wrote:

Second ... players like Sterling or Pedro or Costa are not options for us, if those same big clubs come calling.

Well Pedro was looking for a club all summer so if we acted quicker he could have been had.

Qwiss! wrote:

marv3llous wrote:

Second ... players like Sterling or Pedro or Costa are not options for us, if those same big clubs come calling.

Well Pedro was looking for a club all summer so if we acted quicker he could have been had.

Maybe, but he suddenly became FOTM again, only because he signed for Chelsea. If you go back 6 months and look up our own history, then you would only find Dules seriously advocating him. Most of us were never sold on him coming here and having a meaningful impact. Most of us basically rated Alexis, Theo and Ox to start over him. But hey, people always want what they cant have. Now that he's at Chelsea, its just a perfect stick to beat Wenger and the club with.

Qwiss! wrote:

marv3llous wrote:

Second ... players like Sterling or Pedro or Costa are not options for us, if those same big clubs come calling.

Well Pedro was looking for a club all summer so if we acted quicker he could have been had.

I hate this defeatist attitude. It is also inconsistent with our Sanchez and Ozil acquisitions. If we had bid early this summer, we could have taken Vidal and Pedro for less than £60m. Two experienced winners who would've walked into our starting lineup. The price excuse is based on the dealings of United and City, who are living in a parralel universe. Everybody else, Chelsea included, is paying appropriate prices for talent. For example Barca bought Vidal and Turan for a combined £34m. Ineptitude!

I'd concede blurring that up a bit, and admitting that in the case of any individual deal it's difficult to know if we could have been in on it or not—every player has personal preferences after all.

However there's no way to accept that there were no players available who could have improved our front three. That's blatantly bullshit.

And in general, Arsenal should be an attractive destination for a lot of players even at top clubs.

Didn't want Pedro then and don't want him now. I'm also one of the dwindling number of fans who actually rates Walcott.

It's still negligent to have not completed a deal for at least one signing in the forward positions.

We've mishandled Theo the same way we've mishandled so many things.

Di Marzio is saying that we went for Juventus' Zaza on deadline day but they wanted €30m.

Zaza One Welbeck wasn't enough.

Klaus wrote:

Zaza One Welbeck wasn't enough.

I don't get why Juve chose him over Berardi . Too bad Berardi's injured now (preventing a potential bid).

Zlatan also said there was no Arsenal interest: "No," Ibrahimovic is quoted by the Daily Mirror as saying when pressed about Arsenal's reported interest. "The interest that existed, I have not committed myself to.

If there was one player we should've aimed for, it should've been Reus for 60m pounds.

Klaus wrote:

Zaza One Welbeck wasn't enough.

You don't rate him? Looked decent from limited viewing. Not what we should have gone for (especially since we must have heard of Berardi too then) but better than Welbeck

Yeah, I dunno. He's a decent player, but his limitations are obvious. A lot of his goals came from inside the box or were the result of Berardi taking the piss with some outrageous pass. I'm as surprised as Bryant that Juventus bought the remaining rights to him, but I guess they needed some squad bolster. This way Berardi could have another season of development.

I would have taken a punt at Gabbiadini at Napoli instead. He's roughly the same size as Zaza but he's younger and I think he's got more about him. Some of his touches have been pretty outrageous:

Gabbiadini would have given us a good option on either wing too, making it easier to either play Alexis up front or at least move him to the right flank where he doesn't drop as deep.

Bryant wrote:

Klaus wrote:

Zaza One Welbeck wasn't enough.

I don't get why Juve chose him over Berardi . Too bad Berardi's injured now (preventing a potential bid).

Zlatan also said there was no Arsenal interest: "No," Ibrahimovic is quoted by the Daily Mirror as saying when pressed about Arsenal's reported interest. "The interest that existed, I have not committed myself to.

If there was one player we should've aimed for, it should've been Reus for 60m pounds.

We're saving it for Gotze.

Klaus wrote:

Gabbiadini would have given us a good option on either wing too, making it easier to either play Alexis up front or at least move him to the right flank where he doesn't drop as deep.

After hearing news about Welbeck's injury, a player like Eder might've been useful too.

Yeah, Eder has opened this season in stellar form. He's really stepped up since Gabbiadini left for Naples. There's a plethora of players in Serie A who would have been better options than Zaza.

Klaus wrote:

Zaza One Welbeck wasn't enough.

Who is he Klaus an Italian Welbeck?

The best constantly injured defensive attacker in the team......

Klaus wrote:

Yeah, Eder has opened this season in stellar form. He's really stepped up since Gabbiadini left for Naples. There's a plethora of players in Serie A who would have been better options than Zaza.

Why do none of the top level players in Italy tend to come to England? 

Balotelli being the biggest name aside, if you see an Italian player come in recent times it tends to be to the likes of West Ham (I think they've had a couple of the last few years), Newcastle (Santon) or Sunderland (Giaccherini). That's just a few off the top of my head but I can't think of any players who come with big reputations, adapt well and perform to a high level. I'm pretty sure over the years there has been a few highly rated Italian players have come and been a let down after a year or two and went back to Italy. Aquilani there's another highly rated failure in England. You've got the likes of Pelle at Southampton that has done well but I reckon he's a bit of an outlier having come via Holland. 

There's been plenty of Italian successes in the past, and by that I mean relative to the size of team they signed for, not just absolute top level players like Zola. But there's probably been a lot more failures. Is the culture in Italian life and football really so different as to explain it alone? I've often seen that mentioned as a reason but I struggle to think a Spaniard, or a Korean, or a South American can come and adapt but it's just the Italian's that miss Nonna's pasta too much. 

I still believe with the right manager and a bit of love Balotelli could be a success.

The same could be said vice versa, Tam. Why haven't any English players come to Italy? That's an easier answer though, because the PL is better and Italian teams don't see the value in buying overpriced English players.

I think the issue with regards to Italian players is that there is a lack "top level" players there right now, but there are plenty of interesting players that can improve us. Italy aren't producing the same amount of talent they used to, similar to Brazil. It doesn't help that the most interesting and best talent are monopolized by Juve, who basically own most of the top young prospects of Italy (Pogba, Rugani, Berardi). I think those Italian failures/disappointments you mentioned also shied PL teams away (even non Italian ones like Jovetic, Lamela, and Cuadrado).

It's a shame we don't take a gamble on players in Serie A because we got two of our best players from Serie A (Henry and Vieira) and Italian teams usually sell their players for reasonable prices. I think Gabbiadini (Klaus's mention) was very attainable if we paid Welbeck money. I saw Inter try to do a double deal for Gabbiadini and Ghoulam (who was linked to us too) for 28m euros and we could easily pay 35-40m euros to get the duo.

Bryant I'd started typing out a response about why I thought Brits didn't travel abroad and why Italians might not come to England, then did a bit of research to find numbers of Italians in the league compared to other nationalities and was surprised to find that (since the start of the Premier League in 1992) there appears to have been more Italians than Germans. I'd always bought into the preconception that Italians never traveled well and were failures for the most part but it looks like that was a hasty judgement.

I've not went into it as a breakdown across the years so it might vary or be skewed towards the earlier days. I've not got the time to look further at the moment but I certainly find it interesting.

Biggus wrote:

I still believe with the right manager and a bit of love Balotelli could be a success.

given how things have panned out, i would have been fine with a gamble on him this window. he is such a talented player. there has to be somebody, maybe even the hapless Wenger, who can unlock it again. remember, he was a beast for Milan early in his career, so i'm not speaking hypothetically here.

Tam wrote:

Is the culture in Italian life and football really so different as to explain it alone? I've often seen that mentioned as a reason but I struggle to think a Spaniard, or a Korean, or a South American can come and adapt but it's just the Italian's that miss Nonna's pasta too much. 

Honestly, aside from the currency and the need for a good winter jacket there's little about London that is different from Milano, or Madrid, or Barcelona. At least from my experience. The big cities are multicultural these days. Clubs have translators and contact persons both on and off the pitch and will help you learn the language. And so forth.

I think the reason is the Italian football culture and little else. They don't really go to Spain either, or France. Italy is similar to England in this sense. Ravel Morrison is at Lazio now, but how many English youth go abroad?

It's starting to change though. Darmian evidently has to trouble playing in Premier League. I reckon more of the young guys will come. There's only Juventus at home and they can't all play there. Plus the money in PL is getting really ridiculous.

EDIT: I didn't see Bryan's response, but that's definitely a factor too. Especially the way guys like Jovetic have been treated. He was one of the 'adopted diamonds' of Italian football and City treated him like some U21 reserve. Now he's back and tearing it up for Inter.

Well I suspected as much Klaus, and when you're living off that kind of salary I also suspect you can have anything you want pretty much.

As I said in my other post I started going into it a bit more and deleted it. But like you and Bryant say, the English aren't well traveled either, though I suspect that has as much if not more to do with being technically or tactically lacking compared to continental players.

The other factor you mention is something I was going to touch on too. I wondered if the perception of failure surrounding a lot of Italians in the league both put off teams signing them and Italians being willing to come to England. I can imagine that might work both ways.

Having lived in Milan, Barcelona and London I'd say there's quite a lot of differences between them, some possibly subtle, but the daily feeling of living in those three was very different for me.
I imagine it'd be less different for a millionaire footballer as they would not experience the day to day in the same was as the normal working person and would be cosseted by the club.

y va marquer wrote:

Having lived in Milan, Barcelona and London I'd say there's quite a lot of differences between them, some possibly subtle, but the daily feeling of living in those three was very different for me.
I imagine it'd be less different for a millionaire footballer as they would not experience the day to day in the same was as the normal working person and would be cosseted by the club.

On a side note that's the thing about languages as well. It's not just a case of knowing the exact translations. You need to feel the culture too to learn it fluently. Speaking in another Language puts you in a different zone. Klaus and yourself can attest to that.