Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?: Page 34 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?

Rex

Ray, I'm more than happy if you interpret how we line up and play differently from myself.

banduan

Qwiss! wrote:
Rex wrote:
I think it is clear as day that we have struggled in central midfield without Ramsey in the team btw.

Absolutely. We've been lucky that Ozil and Olly have bailed us out most of the time when we've been poor lately.

We miss the energy bunny now that our other energy bunny is out of charge.

Klaus

We miss the movement above all. For all the talk about Walcott this season, the two players who move best between the lines are Ramsey and Bellerin. By a wide, wide margin. We can barely make do without one of them, let alone both.

Rex

Ramsey helps us in a big way to be more compact and effective defensively, and he adds a lot to our fluidity when we attack. When Chambo plays in that right position, he plays more like a traditional wide midfielder, and our formation becomes a more strict 4-2-3-1. When Walcott plays in that position the team gets terribly unbalanced; it basically means we play with 4 forwards in Walcott, Alexis, Özil and Giroud in what looks like a 4-2-4 formation at times. Campbell is a bit more diligent in defending than Walcott is, although the same tendency is there when he plays, but it means he offers very little going forward. That's why we don't see it too often I would think. Ramsey ties it all together quite well because he offers a lot both defensively and offensively.

Having said that, I think we'd be better served with the addition of another all action, dynamic player in central midfield. It would allow us to play a proper 4-4-2 diamond set up, which would leave Alexis a bit higher up the pitch. We would add another dimension to our counter attacking game that way in my opinion. In this current set up Ramsey, much like Pogba at Juventus, tends to be out of the game for long stretches in certain games; that's what happens if we play a lot on the left, and it isn't ideal.

yuv

Santi looks so slow. Funny to add "all of the sudden" to that, but it does look surprising -
it now affects his game even when we're in possession. He wasn't as bad as the previous game, and losing coq immediately didn't help, but I want to see the earlier form soon - otherwise even a not firing on all cylinders Aaron will have a fair claim again.

And what's it going to be without Coq now? 🙁 perhaps he'll play Ramsey and Santi in the middle (if Ramsey's back)?

Klaus

Santi always looks like he's running through mud. The big problem today wasn't that he was slow. It was that he passed backwards or sideways at every opportunity he got. He had some kind of resurgence in the second half where he played the same diagonal longball to Campbell half a dozen times and then he dropped off again.

lorddulaarsenal

Santi's ageing.

Let Ramsey play centrally. He has energy, is strong physically and can pass well enough. Then go out and get a quality wide forward

yuv

If indeed these are the first signs of Santi's decline (which I don't believe, but we'll have to seriously monitor), I agree internally it all points to Ramsey. But we'll need to see he can improve his ball retention, reduce risk in possession deep in our area, pick the passes from deep quicker, etc. In other words, if this is the beginning of Santi's end, at this point I'd look to buy a replacement, and Let Ramsey do something else, at least at this time. We can't afford to fall back to the days we just couldn't get out of defense when teams were ambushing and bullying us close to our box.

Claudius

Santi needs to. Go to bench. But we still need to buy a CM. Ramsey is a good player, but he's neither a don nor healthy, so why have so much riding on him?

yuv

Considering we need a proper Coq back up, we need at least two midfielders, IMO. Used to be so happy with our glorious midfield - in fact it's the worst part of the team, full of fabricated names in the slots but no one behind them (been like that for a while - does anyone know who Diaby is/was? Rosicky? Arteta? Wilshire? does anyone care who Flamini is?
We need to aim really high - we have WC in Oz and Sanchez, we have good defenders and we're ok at CB and DM. But for this team to really take off, we need a diamond (not the formation) in the heart of it (then we could see if a CF is also a must). Santi was doing magic for a long time, but it looks like we can't expect him to do it for much longer. Even if he does - he's not here for the long run, anyway.

Rex

As always, you are vastly over rating what Cazorla has actually done in central midfield.

yuv

😆 As always, you are the only one to think so.
(but why does it even matter now? I'm saying we must think past him, even if he's not done yet).

Qwiss

Yuv you seem confused, you think Caz is offering loads of great stuff but he needs to be replaced with a new signing?

Klaus

yuv wrote:
😆 As always, you are the only one to think so.

He's not, really. Rex has this weird anti-Santi sentiment where he'd sell him for a bag of toffee, but you likening him to Xavi every week is just as much off point. Most of the time we've struggled to control the midfield with him, which is the exact opposite of Xavi.

The failure of our midfield is nicely illustrated by the fact that we're compelled to start Coquelin week in and week out for defensive stability, and yet it still falls to pieces when we don't have Ramsey who comes inside to help out with workrate and forward movement, sacrificing the right wing in the process. We've picked up two points in three games without him now. People can think what they want but it's not a coincidence.

Our team shape has never been a good compromise, but Wenger prefers half-solutions to buying players that fit into his philosophy. He'll sooner fail than bench a bunch of favourites who individually are very talented but collectively look like less than the sum of their parts. It's as much a reason that we won't win anything as our lack of squad depth.

Gazza M

santi has been crummy since rambo got hurt. the franken-midfield only 'works' with rambo and coqs energy in there. without it the game passes santi by

yuv

Qwiss - read better, I'm anything but confused.

Klaus - never likened him to xavi in my life (or to anyone else, for that matter). Never made anything he was not, never even thought, or suggested, the solution was ideal. I just call it as I see it - no agendas whatever.
Perhaps that's what confused Qwiss here: I love the chubby bugger, but if he's not cutting it anymore - which just might be the case, if the trend doesn't change - then I suggest to cut him loose..

Rex

The only reason I wanted Cazorla sold is because I, and everyone else, know that Wenger will keep giving him an important role in this team when he should really be a bit part player. First guy off the bench and back up in a few positions.

Cazorla is a classy player, but he really isn't a central mid, and he isn't good enough anymore to be a starter on a flank. Hence, Wenger makes concessions elsewhere to compensate. Ramsey helps make it work, and Alexis doing a lot more defensively than he should sort of completes the Frankenstein. We play some sort of hybrid between a 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 diamond as it is today, and IMO it is mostly down to compensate for Cazorla. Even a Schneiderlin level player would allow us to play a proper 4-4-2 diamond, like this:

----------------------Coquelin
----------Ramsey-------------Schneiderlin
----------------------Özil
----------Walcott------------Alexis

Now, that doesn't work. Why? Because Santi is obviously not dynamic enough to be the primary player to help Monreal. Instead, we have to play Alexis a whole lot deeper to compensate. Now, Cazorla has other qualities of course which are valuable to any team, but his shortcomings ARE a problem. On the right side we pretty much play like a proper 4-4-2 diamond, but only when Ramsey is playing. He is dynamic enough to both act as a central mid AND be the primary support defensively for the FB. Chambo or Campbell just can't hack it. Wilshere can, but he is a perma crock unfortunately.

Schneiderlin is of course not the only player who would have been suitable, but he was available last summer. To be satisfied with the way things were/are is moronic on Wenger's part. He didn't like Schneiderlin? Then get another player more to your liking in ffs!

Ray

That is an awful formation, would struggle to bring the ball out of defence. If someone like Schneiderlin was here it would be as backup or replacing Coquelin.

Rex

sigh Whatever.
My point is that Cazorla doesn't allow us to play either a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 diamond. Hence, we seem to play some sort of hybrid between the two. It has worked because of mainly Ramsey and Alexis, but with even one of them out the whole thing has crumbled.

ChiliPalmer

Ray wrote:
That is an awful formation, would struggle to bring the ball out of defence. If someone like Schneiderlin was here it would be as backup or replacing Coquelin.

Spot on. Schneiderlin as a midfielder for Arsenal is bad enough, but as a B2B, that's taking the piss.

Coq, Ramsey, and Schneiderlin have a combined level of technique worthy of Liverpool, totally overkill with so many workhorses, and lack of skill and passing.

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