Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?: Page 19 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Starting "CM" next season - Ramsey vs Cazorla?

Klaus

He was a regular starter pretty much up until his final season where Wenger suddenly put him in the freezer. But yes, of course I'm using the years where he played with Henry as sample. That's the whole point of the comparison. He practically played on the same position where Özil plays now and had similar responsibilities.

My point wasn't that Bergkamp was inadequate anyhow. It's that if his output was good enough for a team that went unbeaten through the league then a similar output from a player in a similar position is good enough now. A lack of goals from Özil is not the main reason our attack is failing. I've seen laymans in particular air that view in multiple threads, and I think it's fucking ridiculous.

laymans

Koscielny and Mertesacker combined scored as many goals as Ozil last season.

Sanchez and Giroud were our top scorers last season, which is expected as they are our 2 forwards.

Ozil as our 3rd forward hamstrings our attack by not offering a goal threat, and that only places greater pressure on Giroud and Sanchez to deliver.

Without Sanchez we were limp against West Ham.

Sanchez and Giroud both delivered against Palace.

Sanchez and Giroud both had great chances last night, but Ozil has to carry some of the flak. He offered no penetration.

Ramsey and Cazorla are the support goalscorers from midfield and they both scored 9 and 7 goals respectively last season, more than Ozil, and the team shouldn't rely on them except as a last resort.

The clear missing link in the goalscoring chain is Ozil.

laymans

Ramsey racked up 8 assists last season and 9 the season before.

Cazorla racked up 15 assists last season and 9 the season before.

Ozil racked up 8 assists last season and 14 the season before.

So not only does he not score, he's not even decisively our best assister.

Klaus

The clear missing link is players who are good enough. Özil has created plenty of chances in every game, ergo he does what he's supposed to do. You've got weird expectations of what a playmaker is supposed to be contributing with.

laymans wrote:
Ramsey and Cazorla are the support goalscorers from midfield and they both scored 9 and 7 goals respectively last season, more than Ozil

6 out of Cazorla's 7 goals last season were penalties.

laymans

Fuck man, Ozil is one of our best players, for sure, but it's hard to look past the fact that he's a bit of a luxury.

Klaus

laymans wrote:
So not only does he not score, he's not even decisively our best assister.

But he's by far our most creative player. I'm sure that point escapes you though.

Klaus

Özil is luxury the same way any good player is in this team, I guess. Whatever amount of good they bring will always be negated either by the bullshit of less able teammates or by a bullshit system.

There's a solution to this problem too, by the way, but it's not to drop the better players.

Gazza M

for me you don't buy ozil and expect goals. he's never scored more than 11 goals in one season in his career. his goal scoring record is almost identical to david silva who many people laud as the player they wish ozil would be more like. i think he'll hit his target of 10 this season. up front is where the real problem is. 1 goal in 10 starts from galoute

flobaba

We'll be free scoring once more soon as Welbeck is fit again.

JazzG

Been saying for months our CM pairing is not working, Cazorla was absolute garbage yesterday and while Coquelin defensively was excellent his passing was average. We need a top class passer in the middle. We ain't going to find anyone now so just have to hope Wilshere can play that role for us.

Claudius

Nothing works, JazzG, because the whole team is an abomination.
A normal man would have done the following in June
a) What is the system that I want to play in order to win the maximum number of games. Is this a traditional 4-4-2, an attacking 4-3-3, etc.
b) Which players do I have that fit my preferred system?
c) What trades do I need to make to fill in the gaps for my system.

I suspect we just jumped to (c) without ever having considered (a) and (b)

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
A lack of goals from Özil is not the main reason our attack is failing. I've seen laymans in particular air that view in multiple threads, and I think it's fucking ridiculous.

Its a factor. Especially when you watch games and see the areas he's in. If he had an instinct for goal he would get 15 a season easy because of his positioning, movement and control. As I've said I think we need to work around him, not replace him. The team needs goals one way or the other.

Gurgen

Özil should score more, but if you look at what he creates and how that gets wasted, it's pretty obvious he's not the main problem. Should offer him for Pogba though, definitely 😆

Shady

Pogba looks good in six second vines, but in reality he goes missing for large periods of games.

flobaba

Yeah. All we know about Pogba is based on what we see in six second vines.

Klaus

He's right though. Pogba gets hyped up a lot because he looks the part physically, but as a player he's not really close to guys like Verratti who play a similar role. Talent is undeniable but he's been Juve's 3rd or 4th best midfielder most of the time.

flobaba

He is Juve's most prized asset because of the influence he exerts on the game, not because he looks the part physically.

Klaus

His (theoretical) value has more to do with his extreme talent and his youth. How he's rated outside Juventus has everything to do with the fact that he's carrying that monster physique around.

JazzG

Arteta + Ramsey was a duo that worked well, now with Arteta being past it we needed to look at a similar but better player. We've gone a completely different route instead and it simply hasn't worked. Football has changed, if we can find a powerhouse who can play fair enough but if we can't then we need someone who can play first. Someone in the middle who can pass but also passes intelligently. We don't have a player like that in our squad, not sure why we haven't looked at rectifying that fault. Like I said maybe Wilshere can do that role for us, I doubt it though.

Temo

JazzG wrote:
We ain't going to find anyone now so just have to hope Wilshere can play that role for us.

What I would do too. The idea that we should go out and buy a partner for Ramsey who is not only as good as Coqulien defensively, but also has Cazorla's passing range and accuracy seems more far fetched then just replacing Cazorla with a quality CM.

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