Players Out: Page 99 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Players Out

Rohit

Yeah, I agree, nothing wrong with refusing to extend a contract.

y va marquer

While it may be frustrating and even infuriating to be part of the current Arsenal team I find the following is just way over the top (from Claude's post):

......Arsenal malaise as an employee. Everyday you have to pick yourself up and go into the training ground or haul yourself off to Stoke. And you know you've lost interest in the manager. As awful as it is for us, it must be unbearable for some of these guys.

For flip sake it’s not bloody Guantanemo!
The majority wouldn't have a hope of playing for another team on a par with Arsenal in terms of facilities and quality of life afforded to them by playing in an elite London based PL.

Don Pacifico

@[deleted]

Yeah, I agree. Think they've all behaved professionally.

@Yva

But people, even footballers, have ambitions. I think I'd be pretty frustrated if I felt my career was being stunted by my company.

Mirth

y va marquer wrote:

......Arsenal malaise as an employee. Everyday you have to pick yourself up and go into the training ground or haul yourself off to Stoke. And you know you've lost interest in the manager. As awful as it is for us, it must be unbearable for some of these guys.

For flip sake it’s not bloody Guantanemo!
The majority wouldn't have a hope of playing for another team on a par with Arsenal in terms of facilities and quality of life afforded to them by playing in an elite London based PL.

That misses the point. You need to look at it in relative terms, sure the Arsenal players have a comfortable and cushy life but at the moment their careers are not going the way they'd hope relative to their peers at other top clubs. As a result, they'll not be as motivated as those playing for United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc and therefore you see them go through the motions.

And you're right, the majority won't be able to move to another top club easily - but you also have to acknowledge that as soon as they move up a level (like Chamberlain just did) the first thing they do is look for an exit opp

flobaba

That^^

y va marquer

Mirth wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
For flip sake it’s not bloody Guantanemo!
The majority wouldn't have a hope of playing for another team on a par with Arsenal in terms of facilities and quality of life afforded to them by playing in an elite London based PL.

That misses the point. You need to look at it in relative terms, sure the Arsenal players have a comfortable and cushy life but at the moment their careers are not going the way they'd hope relative to their peers at other top clubs. As a result, they'll not be as motivated as those playing for United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc and therefore you see them go through the motions.

And you're right, the majority won't be able to move to another top club easily - but you also have to acknowledge that as soon as they move up a level (like Chamberlain just did) the first thing they do is look for an exit opp

I'm not missing the point.

I pointed out that the facilities and life style are top notch - that was not to underline that they were cushy and comfortable - it was to underline that in terms of their physical environment and set-up the conditions that allow motivated players to flourish are there.
That other conditions far from what they should be - a manager who seemingly either does not know or cannot decide how precisey he wants to use his squad, star players frustrated and unsettled, squad players knowing that they are not wanted - would seem to have fostered an atmosphere that's sapped the team of any sense of togetherness and spirit.
However that does not automatically translate to all the players being fatally and irredeemably de-motivated in the current set-up, or to it being the kind of misery that Claude painted.

The assumption is that because angry unhappy fans see it as s*** from the outside that it must be s*** on the inside as well.
That the perceptions formed at a distance removed from the internal environment of the club are a true barometer of how it goes in that environment and how players "must be feeling".
Maybe they are, but it's also possible that being an Arsenal player is not torture and drudgery.

QuincyAbeyie

Everything is possible, we're just calling it as we see it.

y va marquer

Sure,and we're just pointing out that we're not missing the point.

Burnwinter

y va marquer wrote:
As awful as it is for us, it must be unbearable for some of these guys.

For flip sake it’s not bloody Guantanemo!

Doesn't have to be does it? We're only talking about employment decisions.

What is really obvious is that our relative draw as a club has declined dramatically. We offer lower remuneration, lower chances of success, and less cohesion and happiness in the dressing room than a larger number of our rivals.

We're not in Europe's top competition and we're nowhere near winning the Premier League. We're comprehensively a class below Chelsea, City and United, and we're on a level with Liverpool and Spurs.

I just hope there's some degree of recognition that we're a club in decline from the Board. Our value on paper as an investment vehicle will plummet if this keeps up.

Gazza M

y va marquer wrote:
Mirth wrote:
That misses the point. You need to look at it in relative terms, sure the Arsenal players have a comfortable and cushy life but at the moment their careers are not going the way they'd hope relative to their peers at other top clubs. As a result, they'll not be as motivated as those playing for United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc and therefore you see them go through the motions.

And you're right, the majority won't be able to move to another top club easily - but you also have to acknowledge that as soon as they move up a level (like Chamberlain just did) the first thing they do is look for an exit opp

I'm not missing the point.

I pointed out that the facilities and life style are top notch - that was not to underline that they were cushy and comfortable - it was to underline that in terms of their physical environment and set-up the conditions that allow motivated players to flourish are there.
That other conditions far from what they should be - a manager who seemingly either does not know or cannot decide how precisey he wants to use his squad, star players frustrated and unsettled, squad players knowing that they are not wanted - would seem to have fostered an atmosphere that's sapped the team of any sense of togetherness and spirit.
However that does not automatically translate to all the players being fatally and irredeemably de-motivated in the current set-up, or to it being the kind of misery that Claude painted.

The assumption is that because angry unhappy fans see it as s*** from the outside that it must be s*** on the inside as well.
That the perceptions formed at a distance removed from the internal environment of the club are a true barometer of how it goes in that environment and how players "must be feeling".
Maybe they are, but it's also possible that being an Arsenal player is not torture and drudgery.

it's a fair point. now that the dye has been cast and certain players are stuck at arsenal, they shouldn't be excused for not giving everything. and if they're trapped in some bubble where they think their lives are hell, then it's up to wenger to someone to tell them to pull their heads out of their arses

Clrnc

y va marquer wrote:
Mirth wrote:
That misses the point. You need to look at it in relative terms, sure the Arsenal players have a comfortable and cushy life but at the moment their careers are not going the way they'd hope relative to their peers at other top clubs. As a result, they'll not be as motivated as those playing for United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc and therefore you see them go through the motions.

And you're right, the majority won't be able to move to another top club easily - but you also have to acknowledge that as soon as they move up a level (like Chamberlain just did) the first thing they do is look for an exit opp

I'm not missing the point.

I pointed out that the facilities and life style are top notch - that was not to underline that they were cushy and comfortable - it was to underline that in terms of their physical environment and set-up the conditions that allow motivated players to flourish are there.
That other conditions far from what they should be - a manager who seemingly either does not know or cannot decide how precisey he wants to use his squad, star players frustrated and unsettled, squad players knowing that they are not wanted - would seem to have fostered an atmosphere that's sapped the team of any sense of togetherness and spirit.
However that does not automatically translate to all the players being fatally and irredeemably de-motivated in the current set-up, or to it being the kind of misery that Claude painted.

We are not talking about the physical conditions, neither is the non-living aspect of the club like the setup etc. You are missing the point. Claude's assumption is far more valid than if you like to think everything is rosy and players are happy. I think at this point it is pretty clear with half the squad wanting out they are not happy with the general attractiveness on offer at Arsenal, especially given their quality as compared to other clubs on offer.

Coombs

I don't think that noting that Arsenal's facilities and general infrastructure is solid and likely quite comfortable somehow means you think that everything is "rosy". If anything, what Y is saying further throws the club's actual flaws into sharper relief.

jones

Not sure what noting Arsenal's facilities adds to the point at hand given that even at places like Stoke or WBA they will most likely be pretty comfortable. As Mirth says players won't be looking at their surroundings and be thankful for three meals a day

Look at Ornstein's summary of our transfer window. Several important members in the squad were publicly sold then not sold or vice versa, they could be as professional and optimistic as anyone that's always going to have an effect on the team's mood and feelings towards the club

Burnwinter

It's not really about where the club's at, it's about entirely reasonable perceptions of where it's headed. There is no renewal ongoing at Arsenal.

If I were a top flight player I wouldn't want to sign away four or five years of my contract to Arsenal at the moment, not when there's no sign of forward momentum, and I could instead play for another club that's either at the top or on the up.

This is when most clubs would hire a new manager and open the chequebook. Because the perception of positive change is vital.

y va marquer

Clrnc wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
I'm not missing the point.

I pointed out that the facilities and life style are top notch - that was not to underline that they were cushy and comfortable - it was to underline that in terms of their physical environment and set-up the conditions that allow motivated players to flourish are there.
That other conditions far from what they should be - a manager who seemingly either does not know or cannot decide how precisey he wants to use his squad, star players frustrated and unsettled, squad players knowing that they are not wanted - would seem to have fostered an atmosphere that's sapped the team of any sense of togetherness and spirit.
However that does not automatically translate to all the players being fatally and irredeemably de-motivated in the current set-up, or to it being the kind of misery that Claude painted.

We are not talking about the physical conditions, neither is the non-living aspect of the club like the setup etc. You are missing the point. Claude's assumption is far more valid than if you like to think everything is rosy and players are happy. I think at this point it is pretty clear with half the squad wanting out they are not happy with the general attractiveness on offer at Arsenal, especially given their quality as compared to other clubs on offer.

Where was it mentioned that everything was rosy and players were happy?
Nowhere.
I said that it's possible that being a part of this squad isn't drudgery or torture - that does not mean that I'm saying it's the opposite.
I pointed at the physical environment as being a contributory factor that could mitigate some way against the air of chaos and discontent that appears to hang over the club as there is a potential difference in how things are perceived internally versus how they are assumed to be based on perceptions externally.
This random "half the squad" wanting to get out "fact" - where has that come from?

goon

Have to say I agree with y va. Who wanted out? Ox? That's because he wants to play in midfield and get regular game time. Who else, Gabriel? Guy can't speak a word of English and is a backup here. Mustafi? He had a falling out in training and his wife/gf is pregnant in Italy. Bellerin discovering his Barca DNA? Who didn't see that coming since he broke through? Perez? The guy doesn't get any game time.

Sanchez and Ozil might fit the description but that's about it and even then, there's no evidence that's true for the latter.

You often get a comparison with your average employee, well most of the people in my company couldn't give a fuck about how the company is doing. How does that fit in this analogy? Football is different, it's a sport and a club, there are many factors that do not come into play in your average work place.

Clrnc

y va marquer wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
We are not talking about the physical conditions, neither is the non-living aspect of the club like the setup etc. You are missing the point. Claude's assumption is far more valid than if you like to think everything is rosy and players are happy. I think at this point it is pretty clear with half the squad wanting out they are not happy with the general attractiveness on offer at Arsenal, especially given their quality as compared to other clubs on offer.

Where was it mentioned that everything was rosy and players were happy?
Nowhere.
I said that it's possible that being a part of this squad isn't drudgery or torture - that does not mean that I'm saying it's the opposite.
I pointed at the physical environment as being a contributory factor that could mitigate some way against the air of chaos and discontent that appears to hang over the club as there is a potential difference in how things are perceived internally versus how they are assumed to be based on perceptions externally.
This random "half the squad" wanting to get out "fact" - where has that come from?

I actually meant "you" as in 3rd party, not that you mentioned it. I think the assumption that the place is low on confidence, that players feel it is better elsewhere is more valid than if one would like to think. The players doesn't care if the facilities here are something they cannot dream of at another club.

Mustafi, Alexis, Ozil, Bellerin, Ox. That's 5 out of our 11 first team lineup. It's essentially half of them that we are fielding that don't want to stay here. If we are winning things consistently, all these monetary, environment, DNA shit excuses they give won't even come out for discussions. All in all it still boils down to the fact that we haven't showed ambition, lost in the same way constantly and that players don't see the best here.

goon

Clrnc wrote:
Mustafi, Alexis, Ozil, Bellerin, Ox. That's 5 out of our 11 first team lineup. It's essentially half of them that we are fielding that don't want to stay here. If we are winning things consistently, all these monetary, environment, DNA shit excuses they give won't even come out for discussions. All in all it still boils down to the fact that we haven't showed ambition, lost in the same way constantly and that players don't see the best here.

You will still have players wanting to leave. Overmars wanted to leave, Anelka wanted to leave, Vieira wanted to leave after the invincibles season. The likes of Hleb and Flamini were arranging their moves while we were top of the table and playing great football.

It's an undeniable fact that winning and being a successful club makes it easier to retain players, no one is arguing otherwise. But it's a massive projection of your (3rd party your) own feelings to suggest that the reasons for them leaving are because they're just as disillusioned with things as we are. This is Sanchez and Ozil's last big contract, they were going to make it painfully difficult regardless. If we beat Leicester to the title that season I still don't think you'd have seen them sign on the dotted line, but that's wild speculation on my part.

Bold Tone

Hleb is the only one out of your examples that i fully agree with.
Flamini was slighted when we signed Diarra who was a threat to his position so took control of his future.
Barca came calling for Overmars and they were far more prestigious that any player's head would've been turned.
I felt the Anelka deal was driven more by his money-hungry brother-agent than him.
Vieira's threats to leave stemmed from the wengerishness of not building on our "98 success. Anelka got replaced but it wasn't till 2002 that we replaced Petit costing us at least 2 titles, imo. PHW's stupid tabloid intervention also pushed him further and further away from the club.

goon

Bold Tone wrote:
Hleb is the only one out of your examples that i fully agree with.
Flamini was slighted when we signed Diarra who was a threat to his position so took control of his future.
Barca came calling for Overmars and they were far more prestigious that any player's head would've been turned.
I felt the Anelka deal was driven more by his money-hungry brother-agent than him.
Vieira's threats to leave stemmed from the wengerishness of not building on our "98 success. Anelka got replaced but it wasn't till 2002 that we replaced Petit costing us at least 2 titles, imo. PHW's stupid tabloid intervention also pushed him further and further away from the club.

Diarra had already left by then because he couldn't displace Flamini.

Either way, I'm not sure what you think my point is as none of the above suggests they wanted to leave because they were distraught at our constant failures.

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