News Thread 2015: Page 155 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

banduan

Biggus wrote:
Most people vote on gut instinct/traditional grounds not on logic

Now if your initial points were to do with people not voting on rational grounds, regardless of intelligence, I would have agreed with you from the outset. You did not seem to be making that point earlier however.

I myself do believe that people often do not vote on rational grounds - despite being perfectly rational. Humanity's worst trait is not greed but hubris. As such people vote in such a way as to prove to themselves that they are right. Usually what happens is that people would rather perpetuate their poor choices and blinkered world-view because they'd rather not admit their initial choice or viewpoint was a mistake. They would only swing to an opposing viewpoint if they could externalise the conflicting information and values in some way - "whatever people think about his handling of the economy, I've always thought he was the best. But wtf why did he fuck his intern".

Qwiss

There is no such thing as voting on logic. There isnt a singular logical political ideology vs a load of illogical ideas. If anything believing your preference is the correct logical choice is hubris.

y va marquer

Seems to me that a contempt for humanity runs through this whole discussion - people are "stupid, greedy, blinded by pride" - I'm watching live broadcast and analysis of the results of the Irish election.
People were asked who they voted for and why - many of those asked said they voted against the sitting government as they felt the less well off had been abandoned, that even though we are recovering as a nation the recovery is not equal.
This attitude is reflected in the projected results which show an unprecedented number of votes for independent candidates made up mostly of voices from the far left.

A sign that people don't just perpetuate their poor choices and blinkered world view.
Worth noting that there is no far right party in the mix and no swing towards a far right agenda.

Qwiss

If anything Renuas slightly more right than FG manifesto has been rejected.

On the other hand Im disapoointed so many people have gone back to FF. That supports some of the pessism that is talked about here. However there far too many factors involved to take such a simplistic and reactionary view.

Burnwinter

I would agree with that Y. People are no worse than they've ever been right now, and they're always capable of improvement. I think in every society there are some very deeply ingrained beliefs and storylines that feed into prejudice, but they can be changed.

"Cui bono?" is the question to ask when it's asserted that human nature is fixed and unpleasant, so there is no point trying to change things for the better. To add to that, the idea of honestly examining any OECD democracy and declaring "The system is without major flaws, it's just that the awful voters make bad decisions" is absurd.

Despondency about the possibility of change is a kind of reactionary pessimism that's very convenient to those in power at any given time.

y va marquer

Qwiss! wrote:
If anything Renuas slightly more right than FG manifesto has been rejected.

On the other hand Im disapoointed so many people have gone back to FF. That supports some of the pessism that is talked about here. However there far too many factors involved to take such a simplistic and reactionary view.

Aye, the irony being that despite the huge support for independent left candidates we could end up with a FF / FG government.
A prospect that nobody would have envisaged up until recently.

There's a massive "local" aspect to all of this too - I'm not sure how it is elsewhere but I "know" (have met or seen them around the neighbourhood) pretty much all of the candidates in my constituency.
It is possible to get hold of them and get them to work if people are so inclined.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
VR's going to be big though.

As someone who wrangles a desk and a team of software people for a living, I wouldn't mind if it allowed me to work from the hammock on my front porch.

Back garden would be better you wouldn't need pants.
Even Rex could do that job.

Burnwinter

Yeah … nah. Putting on what's effectively a blindfold is a pretty big incentive to ensure your undercarriage does have at least cursory protection.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
I would agree with that Y. People are no worse than they've ever been right now, and they're always capable of improvement. I think in every society there are some very deeply ingrained beliefs and storylines that feed into prejudice, but they can be changed.

Great- We all agree on that lets move on.

And keep fighting the power Burnsy. 🙂

banduan

I'd argue that the improvement is not specifically within persons themselves but within the demographic make-up of voters and voter turnouts. Also, Ireland itself underwent a cathartic event that would help many override their biases.

y va marquer

I'd argue that unless you speak to a decent cross section of people regularly on matters politics that it's dangerous to generalise based on assumptions about their motivations.

To which cathartic event are you referring?

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
If anything Renuas slightly more right than FG manifesto has been rejected.

On the other hand Im disapoointed so many people have gone back to FF. That supports some of the pessism that is talked about here. However there far too many factors involved to take such a simplistic and reactionary view.

Aye, the irony being that despite the huge support for independent left candidates we could end up with a FF / FG government.
A prospect that nobody would have envisaged up until recently.

There's a massive "local" aspect to all of this too - I'm not sure how it is elsewhere but I "know" (have met or seen them around the neighbourhood) pretty much all of the candidates in my constituency.
It is possible to get hold of them and get them to work if people are so inclined.

I reckon the local stuff is way more influential down your way and basically in all rural Ireland. And I exclude Wicklow from that based on the reality that were are basically the commuter belt so while local jobs have disappeared the issue becomes commuting rather than in Cork, Kerry, Mayo, etc where when local jobs go yoj are fucked. I seen an article earlier about the Healy Raes on facebook and all the comments were southside dubs calling their voters awful things. And Dublin South was the only area in the country to uy into 'keep the rwcovery going', because theyre the ones who are benifiitting. Whats worse is the comments saying 'why didnt they have subtitles'. Reminds me of working in IT in Dublin with a guy with a strong west cork accent and all the posh dubs needed me to translate far too often.

Burnwinter

Whats worse is the comments saying 'why didnt they have subtitles'.

Holy fuck, seriously. Can't stand scum snobs like that.

Biggus

😆 Its not a prejudice thing its more akin to Melb/Syd rivalry.

The thing is Burnsy, that in a vast young country like Australia the variation in accents is minimal and hasn't had time to develop before mass media.
In Ireland if you go 30 klms theres a completely different accent, thats why Pep Qs Y va Speedy IG etc and I can barely understand each other.

Burnwinter

Thanks for the explanation Biggus. It's not just about accents. You get that sort of shit in Perth with "north of the river" vs "south of the river"—you get these scum everywhere. Wealthy, ignorant chauvinists really are the worst people around.

Biggus

Yeah, thats the same everywhere.
Qs mentioned Dublin Southsiders like lord Pep of Milltown, don't know where Y va comes from but I suspect we should bow our heads, in Melbourne and Sydney its East V West.

Burnwinter

It is the same, or at least there's a close resemblance everywhere. That said, you can't hold people responsible for where they grew up or went to school until they give away that undeserved contempt for people who haven't had their advantages.

In other news: been coming a while, but Sanders is out of the race for the Democratic nomination according to every Super Tuesday poll.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
It is the same, or at least there's a close resemblance everywhere. That said, you can't hold people responsible for where they grew up or went to school until they give away that undeserved contempt for people who haven't had their advantages.

Don't judge me unless you have stood in my shoes.....

Burnwinter wrote:
In other news: been coming a while, but Sanders is out of the race for the Democratic nomination according to every Super Tuesday poll.

Well that sucks but its probably for the better, he couldn't have won and it would have diverted energy away from defeating the Donald.

y va marquer

Burnwinter wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Biggus. It's not just about accents. You get that sort of shit in Perth with "north of the river" vs "south of the river"—you get these scum everywhere. Wealthy, ignorant chauvinists really are the worst people around.

Yep, the assumption is that the Healy Rae's are ignorant muck savages that represent a bunch of thick boggers (I'm exaggerating slightly but that's the gist of it).
I personally enjoy the fact that people are deceived into thinking this based on a great Kerry accent and the wearing of a flat cap - the Healy Rae's are anything but thick and they will work for their community - that's why they got elected and that's the only way they will get elected again.

I was born and raised in a rural area in Cork North West, close to the Cork Kerry border, so I get the Healy Rae's and why they are popular in Kerry
I personally would be iffy about voting for them as I'm not sure how averse they'd be to taking wads of cash stuffed in brown envelopes, a bit like ol' Mousy Moynihan in Cork North West (not that I have evidence that he's done so - though his constituency office racked up administration costs of €100,000 in a year which he explained away as being spent on toner and ink cartridges).
My friend works for a regional newspaper, when she quizzed him about it he went mental, possibly because she asked him if he had a publishing business going on the side.

I've lived in the City for years now but qs is right, politics here is still very local and the accents are pretty strong 🙂
It's very much about who is visible and seen to be working to improve the lot of people in the area - not just jobs infrastructure, facilities, access to health care, housing etc
It's why god damn Willie O'Dea topped the poll in Limerick and Lowry did so in Tipp.
Ditto for McGrath and Martin in Cork South Central.

jones

Biggus wrote:
In Ireland if you go 30 klms theres a completely different accent, thats why Pep Qs Y va Speedy IG etc and I can barely understand each other.

Interesting, I knew that there's variety of different accents but not to that extent. I know that situation very well, in my home if you go 30 kms there's a chance you'll find a different language altogether. I think it can be a positive though, I'm certain that it plays a large factor for why literally every Moroccan I know has no issues learning new languages.

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