I don't think it's Wenger's fault that we didn't score on those chances, you do. Let's agree to disagree.

Dunno Flob, I have always been first to defend the players and place the blame squarely where it belongs, but after Artetas latest bleating about how unfair the Utd result was I'm starting to think that if they hitch their cart to Wengers wagon they can all go to hell with him.

No, I don't blame him for us failing to score from the few, or more appropriately, the single clear cut chance we were able to create playing at home, against a defence boasting such great players as McNair, Smalling, Ashley Young, Valencia and Blackett. Who can blame him for that? Not me.

I do blame him for building a team incapable of creating better scoring chances. A team incapable of defending if their lives depended on it. a team with no players or characters with any sense of responsibility or fight.

I blame him for building a team of losers. That's why we lost. Because this team, his team, is a team of losers.

Well Wenger chose the players, coached them, observed their potential and sent them out to represent the club. They, through their performances are showing his judgement to be incorrect. As it stands few of the players look like they can consistently perform at the required level. Whose job is it to dare I say it manage those issues.

Take one example, Wilshere is not a goal scorer, his career to date provides no indication he can be one, 6 goals in 106 appearences, and yet he was playing in a role where he was inevitably in positions where he had to do what he has yet to demonstrate the capacity for. Surely not being aware of your players strengths and c weaknesses is a management issue.

Hey you'll get no argument from me fellas, all I'm saying is if players come out with this retarded bollocks parroting Arsehole Wenger making stupid excuses they can go a fuck themselves, instead of treating us like idiots Arteta should be apologising to us and promising to try better next time.

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9577292/Van-Gaal-Tactics-Exposed-Our-Friend-Monreal-

Biggus wrote:

Dunno Flob, I have always been first to defend the players and place the blame squarely where it belongs, but after Artetas latest bleating about how unfair the Utd result was I'm starting to think that if they hitch their cart to Wengers wagon they can all go to hell with him.

AW's excuse culture & sense of entitlement BS for playing 'the right way'.

flobaba wrote:

No, I don't blame him for us failing to score from the few, or more appropriately, the single clear cut chance we were able to create playing at home, against a defence boasting such great players as McNair, Smalling, Ashley Young, Valencia and Blackett. Who can blame him for that? Not me.

I do blame him for building a team incapable of creating better scoring chances. A team incapable of defending if their lives depended on it. a team with no players or characters with any sense of responsibility or fight.

I blame him for building a team of losers. That's why we lost. Because this team, his team, is a team of losers.

Something like this.

United have faced like 12 teams since April away from home and managed to not win since then. Most of the teams were scoring freely against them too even when they fielded better defences. Who would have thought we cant even manage a point against such a mighty backline?

I have total apathy for this game.

For 60 mins I thought "this is a great game, we are creating chance look regularly dangerous and the crowd atmosphere is banging". Yet we just didnt even make the GK work hard for his saves a regularly made errors that prevented us from being 3-0 up going into the final 30mins. I feel for artera when he comes out and talks about playing a good game, but the reality is we never worked those chances to the best of our ability and paid for it due to our lack of ability to defend.

I don't see where the team goes from here as the lack of awareness of the issues and abity to deal with them as a group will fuck us all season. Wenger is a non-event; I've ruled him entirely out of the equation for getting us out of this issue as he looks far out of his depth and totally cluess and lost as manager of the team, from that aspect it wouldn't matter if we fired him and let Bould have a go. The problem is wenger, but the players who are frankly playing well below their respective abilities, are the ones who will have to deal with any recovery this season.

Your second sentence nails exactly how i felt.
Thought it was only a matter of time but, instead, we conspire to self-combust after Jack's injury.
I come on here and reading the posts don't even get me fired up.
At least Theo's "twin brother" won the F1 world Championship this week-end to cheer me up!

What van Gaal said is completely laughable. No one sets his team up on purpose to play the way Man U did until that flukey 1-0. They absolutely got out of jail.

I just can't get my head around what we do every time we go a goal down. It is just so stupid and reckless it beggars belief.

I wonder - are the players still playing for Wenger? If so, how long will that last if we keep going like this? Right now, that is probably my biggest hope of Wenger leaving before his contract is up.

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

It's baffling Jazz.  I do have some sympathy for wenger with this one.

If we play like we did in the first half, more often than not we'll win games

Giroud will be a big help to start imposing our attack again

Wenger is having his faults brutally exposed this season but you can't fault the set up or the performance in most of that game.  When we went 1-0 down it was a fucking joke what happened, looked like we would lose by more than one.  Before that we were good.  It is nonsense to suggest them being bad made us look good, we pressurised their midfield and back three and forced them into making mistakes

Also I've given Giroud a fair bit of stick more recently but a great finish by him.  Hope the extra competition and extra rotation gives him a push.  Early days for Welbeck but he needs to start finishing those chances.  I'd be more worried though if he wasn't getting on the end of those chances.

We played our best football of the season until 1-0 down IMO. We were a lot more direct and incisive in our forward passing than ever, and that was really good to see. I assume the players were playing to instruction, so credit to Wenger. However, what happened after we were a goal down, is ALL on Wenger too IMO. Every time we go behind in a game all caution is thrown aside. We quite clearly do not have a clue about what we are doing out there, and that is also on Wenger.

Biggus wrote:

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9577292/Van-Gaal-Tactics-Exposed-Our-Friend-Monreal-

But van Persie barely had a kick all game.

I don't think we lost any individual battles on the pitch. Collectively we just imploded like we usually do, you don't really need much tactical expertise to beat us. If our individual players aren't on form, it's only a matter of time before we get caught out - whoever we play.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I don't think it's Wenger's fault that we didn't score on those chances, you do. Let's agree to disagree.

It's so frustrating coming on here after a defeat, where 11 players not named Wenger fucked up, and the only analysis capable by most is to complain about Wenger.

There seems to be this confusion that by deflecting the blame off Wenger onto the players, that I am somehow supporting the latter. Couldn't be further from the truth. Wenger is ULTIMATELY responsible for everything. However, in the aftermath of a football match, it is the players that should be talking point, not the fucking manager.

Anyone with even a tiny bit of clue could clearly see that we lost the game, because Wilshere, Welbeck and Oxlade failed to take their chances. Simple fucking as. It had nothing to do with anything else. Talking about Wenger is fucking tiresome.

"our best football of the season until"

May I never hear that phrase again …

Our naivete going forward has more to do with the personality of the players, then it has to do with any specific instructions to go gung-ho.

This is something we used to witness in the Fabregas or Arshavin days, and even earlier. It's not so much that Wenger is saying, run forward like the Alamo. Rather that the players he chooses to put on the field, are of the type to attack and attack and attack. These same players would pick and choose their moments much more securely if they were older. Problem is that we all have them in the team when they are at their naive best.

Fabregas was the exact same during his spell here. He just drove the team forward just as naively. If we had him now in his peak, we wouldn't have suffered this problem, same goes for the kids we have in the team now.

There were no tactics involved on Van Gaals part ffs

They got hammered for 60 mins and should have been at least a couple of goals down. Then they got a jammy goal. After that, they should be ashamed that it we each got one goal a piece because we had no defence, fucking Mertesacker was bombing up into the final third in open play with 30 mins left. Against the old United or any other team who have anything about them, we'd have conceded 3 or 4.

For years I heard we need more experience, yet it was the world cup winner with over 100 caps that went bombing forward leaving huge gaps at the back with half an hour to go. We don't need experience, we needs players who have a clue, or at least a manager who doesn't let players without a clue do whatever they want.

otfgoon wrote:

There were no tactics involved on Van Gaals part ffs

They got hammered for 60 mins and should have been at least a couple of goals down. Then they got a jammy goal. After that, they should be ashamed that it we each got one goal a piece because we had no defence, fucking Mertesacker was bombing up into the final third in open play with 30 mins left. Against the old United or any other team who have anything about them, we'd have conceded 3 or 4.

For years I heard we need more experience, yet it was the world cup winner with over 100 caps that went bombing forward leaving huge gaps at the back with half an hour to go. We don't need experience, we needs players who have a clue, or at least a manager who doesn't let players without a clue do whatever they want.

I watched the highlights and couldn't believe my eyes that Mertesacker was on the right flank overlapping.

At that stage I was just laughing.

ultimate_warrior wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I don't think it's Wenger's fault that we didn't score on those chances, you do. Let's agree to disagree.

It's so frustrating coming on here after a defeat, where 11 players not named Wenger fucked up, and the only analysis capable by most is to complain about Wenger.

Believe me, it's just as frustrating to see you come on here and constantly repeat this line like it's some genius point you're making.

It's not a coincidence when you systematically fail to score from these type of chances. We only have ourselves to blame for what happened against United. The sense of entitlement of some people is genuinely baffling to me. They think we've earned the right to win a game just because we created a couple good chances. In reality, football is about taking your chances when they present themselves. We don't have players capable of converting chances, and when we do have one or two, they are never the players who most frequently find themselves in goalscoring positions.

You talk about player accountability, but accountability can only ever be relative to the level of the player. Welbeck, Chamberlain and Wilshere are not great (or even good) goalscorers. The fact that they occupied 3 of the 4 forward positions in the team speaks volumes. For each dropped point the problem becomes more apparent and the need for a fix becomes more urgent. We've built a team that couldn't shoot its way out of the first level in Duck Hunt.

I dunno, while I don't disagree with the general sentiment, I'd have expected almost every player in the squad to put away Jack's chance, he was about 6 yards from goal and fully in control of the ball... that should be a nailed on goal for lower league players.

I'm sure he is disappointed with the effort as well.

Think that miss also drove his frustration which was expressed in his flare up with Fellaini, and him trying to force the issue which ultimately led to his latest injury.

11 players may have fucked up, and certainly those missing there chances did, but us not having a clue how to react going down is on the manager. Tired of us playing with this delusion that the game will play out in a certain way, and its even worse now that we don't have the quality to dictate how the game will be played.

Why do the 11 players constantly fucked it up, especially in big matches? Why do opponents always let us so call "dominate" only to kill us off?

It's not rocket science.

Re that Van Gaal quote I posted: I didn't intend it to be an explaination of what happened in the game but rather an illustration of how a normal manager approaches a game.
He analyses the opposition he then looks at his own available players and he looks for ways to exploit weaknesses and maximise his advantages,
Contrast this to Wenger who has his team play the EXACT SAME WAY every single game regardless of opposition or players available and continues it during the game regardless of changing circumstances- This hasn't changed in 8 years!
No wonder there isn't a manager on earth who doesn't know how to beat us.

Klaus wrote:

They're just parroting back what they are told. Mertesacker and Wilshere came out with the same stuff this weekend. When we drew to Everton earlier this season after going two goals down in the first half there were five players on the official site echoing the view that "it was a great comeback" despite the fact that we didn't really come back; we lost two points. It's a narrative, not independent reflections. Not a single footballer has ever said anything in the mixed zone that is worth quoting.

I know its all carefully stage managed by the great dictator Klaus.
But I used to view the players sympathetically, as employee's they were paid to play and represent the club at charity events etc, and their pronouncements should be confined to broad bland motherhood statements.
Now they sound like they're speaking for Arsene not Arsenal they look increasing like the followers of a tottering dictator who fight on not because they believe in him but because they know that their fate is irrevocably tied to his.
If any more of them come out like this- They can go fuck themselves along with him, and that includes Flamini.

Robin must be feeling justified with his decision to dump us right now

Biggus wrote:

Klaus wrote:

They're just parroting back what they are told. Mertesacker and Wilshere came out with the same stuff this weekend. When we drew to Everton earlier this season after going two goals down in the first half there were five players on the official site echoing the view that "it was a great comeback" despite the fact that we didn't really come back; we lost two points. It's a narrative, not independent reflections. Not a single footballer has ever said anything in the mixed zone that is worth quoting.

I know its all carefully stage managed by the great dictator Klaus.
But I used to view the players sympathetically, as employee's they were paid to play and represent the club at charity events etc, and their pronouncements should be confined to broad bland motherhood statements.
Now they sound like they're speaking for Arsene not Arsenal they look increasing like the followers of a tottering dictator who fight on not because they believe in him but because they know that their fate is irrevocably tied to his.
If any more of them come out like this- They can go fuck themselves along with him, and that includes Flamini.

I give you Marshawn.

I thought this was hilarious and shows that education is not the only measure of intelligence.

Klaus wrote:

ultimate_warrior wrote:

It's so frustrating coming on here after a defeat, where 11 players not named Wenger fucked up, and the only analysis capable by most is to complain about Wenger.

Believe me, it's just as frustrating to see you come on here and constantly repeat this line like it's some genius point you're making.

It's not a coincidence when you systematically fail to score from these type of chances. We only have ourselves to blame for what happened against United. The sense of entitlement of some people is genuinely baffling to me. They think we've earned the right to win a game just because we created a couple good chances. In reality, football is about taking your chances when they present themselves. We don't have players capable of converting chances, and when we do have one or two, they are never the players who most frequently find themselves in goalscoring positions.

You talk about player accountability, but accountability can only ever be relative to the level of the player. Welbeck, Chamberlain and Wilshere are not great (or even good) goalscorers. The fact that they occupied 3 of the 4 forward positions in the team speaks volumes. For each dropped point the problem becomes more apparent and the need for a fix becomes more urgent. We've built a team that couldn't shoot its way out of the first level in Duck Hunt.

There's nothing you've said that I have previously stated anything against.

I agree with pretty much everything. That we don't have the quality to defeat the big teams because we we have too few real goalscorers in the team. I didn't think we'd beat United, but when you look at their defence, it's laughable that we couldn't. We had our chances, our attackers missed them. That has usually been the deciding factor in most of our big game performances over the years. We miss our chances, the opponents takes theirs. 

Also tied in with our lack of goalscorers, is that we always play for the win, whether it's 0-0, 1-0 or 0-3. This often always works against us, because we pour forward looking to score goals, without actually having the offensive ability to make it count. In truth we disrespect the opponent, by trying to punch above our weight. The big teams that we always lose against are superior, yet we play like we are on their level or better. Playing for a draw, or rather trying to stifle the opponent, instead of imposing our game on them is more likely to generate a favourable outcome.

ultimate_warrior wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I don't think it's Wenger's fault that we didn't score on those chances, you do. Let's agree to disagree.

It's so frustrating coming on here after a defeat, where 11 players not named Wenger fucked up, and the only analysis capable by most is to complain about Wenger.

There seems to be this confusion that by deflecting the blame off Wenger onto the players, that I am somehow supporting the latter. Couldn't be further from the truth. Wenger is ULTIMATELY responsible for everything. However, in the aftermath of a football match, it is the players that should be talking point, not the fucking manager.

Anyone with even a tiny bit of clue could clearly see that we lost the game, because Wilshere, Welbeck and Oxlade failed to take their chances. Simple fucking as. It had nothing to do with anything else. Talking about Wenger is fucking tiresome.

In this case you can admonish wenger from directly impacting the result, as the players did let him down. I still think looking at that game going into half time you bring on podolski due to the likelihood of him banging every chance we created, but that's just me.

The problem with saying "the 11 players let us down" is that is isn't just those eleven players it's countless over the years. In fact, in the past two season we have had how many total embarrassing performances out of the arsenal XI our on the pitch. That remains their fault each time  as they are the ones out there. Biir who picks the team, coaches (or not) them, provides motivation and instruction? Wenger is at the heart if why the players play like this as evidence has shown a diverse group of plates to come up with the same failings over countless games, seasons, and various quality of opponent.