Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Some of you think we won't finish third or fourth, while United will.. And yet we should beat them? If you think they will finish in front of us, you also think they're the better team. (I don't )

Hard to predict, we've dug ourselves down Into a pit, depends on when we stop digging.
Been here before, and obviously Wenger has managed to get us to claw our way back up before.
Guess It depends on whether or not he can restore some confidence or whether or not the players can sort things for themselves.

y va marquer wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Some of you think we won't finish third or fourth, while United will.. And yet we should beat them? If you think they will finish in front of us, you also think they're the better team. (I don't )

Hard to predict, we've dug ourselves down Into a pit, depends on when we stop digging.
Been here before, and obviously Wenger has managed to get us to claw our way back up before.
Guess It depends on whether or not he can restore some confidence or whether or not the players can sort things for themselves.

Thing is that previously there used to be some margin for error with only 4 genuine contenders for top4.
LFC changed that last season, and the new PL revenues sees the likes of Saints able to mount a genuine challenge when not involved in UEFA comps, whilst the usual suspects struggle.

flobaba wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

I wonder this everytime we hit these crushing slumps - just how bad does a run of results have to be before significant, meaningful changes becomes the only solution?

These changes, who is going to make them? 

And What precisely do you mean by "significant", by "meaningful"?

Sacking Wenger, the board.
Thought that was obvious.
Obviously not

Can the board be sacked? Serious question. If so, by who?

Tam wrote:

Biggus Im long past the point where I found your tedious anti wenger campaign funny,

"My tedious campaign"- Like its all my fault?
Much as I'd like to take all credit for Wenger being the laughing stock of the football world- I can't in all good conscience. :saint:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Can the board be sacked? Serious question. If so, by who?

The owner?

Ah Biggus, I've heard it all now, you can't blame Wenger for your Wenger OCD

Just realised that frakking NUFC are 5th FFS - 6 wins & 1 draw in their last 7 games, including wins over Citeh, LFC & Spuds in consecutive games.

Anzac wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Can the board be sacked? Serious question. If so, by who?

The owner?

Kroenke probably doesn't even know that we played today

Anzac wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Can the board be sacked? Serious question. If so, by who?

The owner?

Actually forgot that Kroenke had bought the final shares, for some reason I was thinking he was still at 40 something percent.

As to your other post, I still don't think people get to mock those who think we will finish 3rd/4th and be baffled that we can't beat this United team. Gotta choose one.

In my opinion, we can't and we shouldn't wait for the board. They are all Wengerites. He's probably got them all under his spell.

The fans have to be the ones to force a change if there's going to be any. We are too apathetic in general, our supporters. We need to be more vocal and critical at the games, we need to carry larger posters and signs expressing our discontent. We need to be marching around the stadium in protest. After every single game. Until they take notice.

That we have basically watched and done nothing as things got this sour is bad enough. Now, we have to stop this train wreck ourselves. Unless we plan on just waiting it out and then hoping Wenger isn't rewarded with a new contract at the end of this one. That would be the most cowardly route to take.

I want my Arsenal back. If I lived in London, that's what I'd do.

I don't think that you really have to choose either or now though Quincy
Todays' s game showed that we still have some serious issues dealing with United, not that United are capable of going on a consistent enough run that guarantees that they finish ahead of us.
Not every mid-table team will struggle to score against them like we did, or gift them a goal.
Then again, will we continue to struggle to score and gift goals?

Anzac wrote:

y va marquer wrote:

Hard to predict, we've dug ourselves down Into a pit, depends on when we stop digging.
Been here before, and obviously Wenger has managed to get us to claw our way back up before.
Guess It depends on whether or not he can restore some confidence or whether or not the players can sort things for themselves.

Thing is that previously there used to be some margin for error with only 4 genuine contenders for top4.
LFC changed that last season, and the new PL revenues sees the likes of Saints able to mount a genuine challenge when not involved in UEFA comps, whilst the usual suspects struggle.

Truth is, we HAVEN'T been this poor before.

The commentators mentioned this is our worst start to a season since 1982!

That was before Wenger got here. He is taking us back to unprecedented levels of shiteness. Levels I've not seen in my lifetime. It's amazing.

Groundhog day.

Like I said on the other site, just more proof that under Wenger we will do nothing. I didnt even react to Giroud scoring, I knew we would still lose. In fact the feeling of a loss hit me when Wilshere missed that sitter.

I think its beyond Fergie's documented formula now, its psychological. Until Wenger goes nothing will change against United and we will do nothing significant.

The board of course also have to be removed, so its up to us really.

flobaba wrote:

Anzac wrote:

Thing is that previously there used to be some margin for error with only 4 genuine contenders for top4.
LFC changed that last season, and the new PL revenues sees the likes of Saints able to mount a genuine challenge when not involved in UEFA comps, whilst the usual suspects struggle.

Truth is, we HAVEN'T been this poor before.

The commentators mentioned this is our worst start to a season since 1982!

That was before Wenger got here. He is taking us back to unprecedented levels of shiteness. Levels I've not seen in my lifetime. It's amazing.

Wasn't the 8-2 our worst defeat in top flight and the worst start for 50 years?

y va marquer wrote:

Ah Biggus, I've heard it all now, you can't blame Wenger for your Wenger OCD

Thats not what I said.

I made the decision a while ago that you'd have to be mad to care about anything while he's still here, its the hope that raises unreasonable expectation's and makes people unhappy.
Theres no form or function to the team anymore,  it's like a Dadaist play.......All we can do is laugh at the absurdity and wonder at the brilliance of the odd beautiful goal.

Learnt nothing new today.

Wenger is past it and can't win a big game to save his life.

Man Utd are better than us. You can still deny if you want, but they will most likely finish ahead of us.

Our team is shit. Szczesny is cack.

All I can say is I'm glad Klaus isn't here to witness this.

It would break his gentle heart.

flobaba wrote:

The fans have to be the ones to force a change if there's going to be any. We are too apathetic in general, our supporters. We need to be more vocal and critical at the games, we need to carry larger posters and signs expressing our discontent. We need to be marching around the stadium in protest. After every single game. Until they take notice.

That we have basically watched and done nothing as things got this sour is bad enough. Now, we have to stop this train wreck ourselves. Unless we plan on just waiting it out and then hoping Wenger isn't rewarded with a new contract at the end of this one. That would be the most cowardly route to take.

I want my Arsenal back. If I lived in London, that's what I'd do.

Sorry but I take zero responsibilty for the fact that Kroenke does not give a rattling damn about our fortunes on the pitch.
If things get unbearable and dire enough for them the matchgoing fans may do what the Newcastle fans did.
Might get a "sackwenger.com"  going.
Banners In the stadium, marches, would only work If we keep losing though.
That's the flaw In the plan.

well the suspense is gone, because the script is written before every arsenal game. having no suspense or excitement undercuts alot of what makes football great. seems to be many gooners who are just tuning out these days

Just watched that Wilshere miss again and for me it's down to him being completely one footed. It's a goal if he hits it with his right but the extra touch to get it on his left takes him too close to the keeper.

Gazza M wrote:

well the suspense is gone, because the script is written before every arsenal game. having no suspense or excitement undercuts alot of what makes football great. seems to be many gooners who are just tuning out these days

 My feelings exactly, Wenger has destroyed my hope that we can achieve something special, either in an individual match or season. Without that it's hard to look forward to games and if you remove that hope then not much remains. It's getting to the stage where even if change leads to further difficulties or problems I think a least they would be fresh and at the very least reinvigorate my support in some way

http://www.football365.com/f365-says/9575855/16-Conclusions

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9575827/Premier-League-Arsene-Wenger-is-frustrated-by-loss-to-Man-United

I was at a wedding and missed the game. Very enjoyable evening. You should try it sometime.

Who am I kidding I'm still livid.

We actually played well and were a lot more direct than usual. Resulted in us carving out several really good chances. In the end, our inability to convert one or two of the chances we created in the first half cost us the game.

Wilshere's injury was the beginning to our downfall the way I see it; Cazorla wasn't even half as good as Wilshere had previously been, and right then and there us creating chances slowed down. Then Wenger hammered the final nail in the coffin when he brought Giroud on. The sub was 100 percent correct, but how he deployed the players when Giroud came on is what finally killed us IMO. Chamberlain was absolutely brilliant on his flank, and Alexis certainly had the beating of his guy on the other flank. The logical move, in my world, would have been to put Giroud at point WITH Welbeck to take advantage of both players' size to latch on to the crosses that Chamberlain and Alexis would have put into the box. Wenger's move? Stay with the same system, move Welbeck wide, and put Chamberlain in central midfield. The result - he negated our complete dominance on the flanks, and he didn't do a single thing to put more pressure on that makeshift defense.

First goal was a big error from Sneezey, but in the end it shouldn't have mattered since Fellatio was offside. We were shafted by the lino.

For the second goal it was just a rehash of what we have seen on numerous occasions; a corner for us leads to a 2v1 for the opposition. Cazorla was extremely weak against Rooney who simply wanted it more in that situation, and Arteta made a massive error in judgement. Haven't seen it mentioned here, but if Arteta chooses to fall back when he sees Cazorla is losing out to Rooney, then it's a 2v2 instead of a 2v1 with Monreal alone against Di Maria and Shrek. Instead, Arteta chooses to stand his ground and gambles to intercept the pass, and that was never in a million years on.

Giroud's goal was absolutely top drawer. As good a finish as it gets.

Rex wrote:

Then Wenger hammered the final nail in the coffin when he brought Giroud on. The sub was 100 percent correct, but how he deployed the players when Giroud came on is what finally killed us IMO. Chamberlain was absolutely brilliant on his flank, and Alexis certainly had the beating of his guy on the other flank. The logical move, in my world, would have been to put Giroud at point WITH Welbeck to take advantage of both players' size to latch on to the crosses that Chamberlain and Alexis would have put into the box. Wenger's move? Stay with the same system, move Welbeck wide, and put Chamberlain in central midfield. The result - he negated our complete dominance on the flanks, and he didn't do a single thing to put more pressure on that makeshift defense.

Really good analysis there Rex.
Concerning too that in a game where we're chasing a goal we stick with a lone striker when we had been getting crosses in all game. We needed Welbeck/Giroud central, Ox/Sanchez wide, and Arteta/Rosicky (over Cazorla) central with instructions to play conservatively.
Also criminal that Podolski can't get any minutes. We were screaming for a finisher through the entire second half, and I'd have had him on ahead of Cazorla or in place of Welbeck.

At 0-0 when Wilshere was injured, I think it was a logical sub to bring Cazorla on for him; I say that because we dominated the game, and at that point looked a lot more likely to get that first goal.
However, when we are bringing Giroud on at 0-1, already with Cazorla on the pitch, the logical move for me would have been what I mentioned above, but at the same time tell Cazorla to play deep next to Arteta and help him PROTECT THE EFFIN' CBs!!!!

We see this time and again when we go a goal down; all of a sudden it seems as if everyone, bar Arteta or Flamini, has COMPLETE freedom to push as high up the pitch as they want. Today, we even saw Mertesacker ON THE RIGHT WING FFS! The truth is, most of the time, that we don't need more players pushing up. Especially today it was soooo obvious that we easily worked the ball into their final third, and we could get crosses into the box at will. We needed another player with good aerial ability in the box to improve our percentages, but Wenger completely got it wrong with how he utilized his players when Giroud came on.

Should have brought on someone else than Cazorla today. We had a choice: do we sub on an attacking player and keep pushing for a win or do we sub on someone who can stabilise the game defensively and secure the point? Naturally, we chose option three instead, which was to bring on someone who hasn't scored in his last 30 Premier League games and can't tackle. It wasn't the immediate reason we conceded either goal, but I just don't get the point of it all. It was like playing with 10 men.

Wilshere was awesome apart from his finishing, by the way. We're screwed if he's out for long.

I figured we'd lose this game, by the way. I'm mostly annoyed that I was dumb enough to schedule a very long return trip around this game. 20+ hours on trains, planes and airports to get home to this...

Like me, you are not numb when it comes to Arsenal though. Seems as if a lot of people around here feel that way now.

AW talks of our inefficiency in attack and naivety in defence = that's what happens when you don't place enough emphasis on the basics of each discipline.

I'd almost gotten into the Saturday night zone where I'd forgotten about this s***, until I ended up conceding to watching the recorded MOTD.
What's still driving me mad is the prissy little feeble attempts at shooting at goal, enough chances to have scored first, even to have scored twice without reply.

Shit result, shit performance (flatters to deceive as always), shit player and a shit manager. Fucking hate our midfield. Wilshere was our best midfielder today and he was damn near abysmal. There is no thought or plan behind the way we play. We pressed fairly decent today and created a few chances against a piss poor man u side, but couldn't score goals. I fucking hate this current side. I would sell every player except for Sanchez. Get rid of Wenger, sell 8-10 players and start over. This team is a mess.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Shit result, shit performance (flatters to deceive as always), shit player and a shit manager. Fucking hate our midfield. Wilshere was our best midfielder today and he was damn near abysmal. There is no thought or plan behind the way we play. We pressed fairly decent today and created a few chances against a piss poor man u side, but couldn't score goals. I fucking hate this current side. I would sell every player except for Sanchez. Get rid of Wenger, sell 8-10 players and start over. This team is a mess.

You're not alone in feeling that way - Yuvken's said much the same earlier in this thread.
At this rate with another 2 seasons of more of the same shite I dare say that it may well be the case that the squad is beyond salvation.
In which case why not go for revolution rather than evolution?

On a somewhat positive note - how good has Chamberlain been his last couple of games? Walcott is going to find it tough to get into the team if he keeps playing this well, I reckon.