Eden Hazard: Page 33 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Eden Hazard

Rex

Kami, this is what I said:

"I think Ryo looks amazing myself. Reminds me so much of Ronaldo at his age!"

and this:

"His physical attributes, his work ethic and his technical level makes him extremely interesting to me. He excites me more than any other young player at the club tbh, and I can genuinely see him turning into a superstar".

Where in all that did I say that Ryo is certain to become the next Ronaldo? I´ll tell you what though. At this point in time I feel 100 per cent certain that bar massive injury trouble Ryo will be an excellent player by PL standards within 3 years. You can quote me on that if you will.

Claudius

Reminds you of which Ronaldo? He looks nothing as good as either Cristiano Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo at age 19. Both were already really good players by then. None of our small, speedy forwards are magically going to turn into stars in their 20s. It's the central midfielders, big strikers and defenders who have more of a hope of blossoming late.
I don't see any world beaters amongst our kids, excluding Wilshere.

Klaus

Miyaichi is basically the same height as Ronaldo.

Ricky1985

Not the first time I've seen that mistake from someone claiming to know Ryo won't be all that. He's 6 foot and will be a bit of a physical specimen when he's fully developed.

Claudius

by a big striker, Ricky, i mean someone the size of Drogba
i know you like to say that Ronaldo is only good because he is a physical bully, but when he arrived at United, he was a wiry fellow with little muscle. what he did have at the time was remarkable skill. then he added goals, and then he added muscle and power.

Ricky1985

I think you got the order wrong there, Cali. Ronaldo turned himself into a physical specimen and then the goals and the consistency followed. Aided, too, by him maturing and improving elsewhere in his game (and his life).

Ronaldo's not a 'physical bully'; he's a physical phenomenon, and of course that's a massive part of why he's so damn good.

Claudius

I don't buy that.
He was already scoring from the wing.
What allowed him to become an all-around forward was the strength training. With that, he was able to become United's best header of the ball, for example.
Whatever the case, he was already an exceptionally gifted footballer to start with. I can go drop my body fat to 3% and get killer abs, but without the footballing genius of a Ronaldo, I'll never amount to anything.

Ricky1985

No one's saying he's not an exceptionally gifted footballer, I've certainly never said that. He didn't start scoring heavily until he was 22 years old, and he had transformed himself physically by that point, without question. So I don't see your argument at all.

Claudius

My argument is the same as it's always been. For forwards, if you are not showing brilliance at a young age, unless you're a big fella, you're unlikely to be brilliant in your 20s. I don't buy that Ryo or any of our other reserves are going to amount to anything more than Walcott and Vela.

Mirth

Caligula wrote:
My argument is the same as it's always been. For forwards, if you are not showing brilliance at a young age, unless you're a big fella, you're unlikely to be brilliant in your 20s.

Samuel Eto'o and Diego Forlan dislike this.

You just can't make sweeping statements about players, each player stands or falls on his own ability. FWIW I don't see anything special about Ryo, but it was impressive to see him settle in Europe as well as he has done. Could be a good player for someone.

Claudius

GM, yes there are exceptions. I was referring to a more general trend. Eto'o was already really good early on. Real Madrid were just stacked and disinterested in youth. He did well away from Madrid. Forlan I have not followed as much, so can't comment. What's his story?

Mirth

Caligula wrote:
GM, yes there are exceptions. I was referring to a more general trend. Eto'o was already really good early on. Real Madrid were just stacked and disinterested in youth. He did well away from Madrid. Forlan I have not followed as much, so can't comment. What's his story?

Eto'o was not 'really good' early on.

He was loaned to second-division CD Leganés. After making 30 appearances for the club and only scoring four goals, Eto'o returned to Madrid following the end of the 1998–99 season. In January 1999, he was loaned out to RCD Espanyol, but failed to make any appearances for the club.

Eto'o's career only really took off at Mallorca and even then few ever considered him a special talent until the season before he joined Barcelona.

Forlan was a bit Carlos Vela, supposedly a bright talent, joined Man Utd at 21. Then flopped, written off as hopeless and as one of Ferguson's worst buys. But since then I'd say he's been one of the top five strikers after 2005. From the age of 26 onwards.

I'm tempted to add Di Natale to the list as well but I don't know much about his early career. Maybe Klaus can fill us in?

Claudius

I thought Forlan was good prior to joining United, but he flopped there in the same way that Veron did or Bergkamp flopped at Inter.
By the time Eto'o was at Mallorca, he was considered an excellent player, their all-time leading scorer. I remember really liking him at the time. And he wasn't just a minor transfer to Barca. He went for around 25 million Euros if I remember correctly, and this was at the age of 23.

Mirth

Sure, but this about your point about players not impressing at a young age.

Eto'o joined Mallorca after he turned 20, his average for him was around 13 goals a season, no one predicted that he was capable of being a world great at that time. Forlan was impressive in South America, not in Europe. People wrote him off in the same way that you've written off a host of players just because they're not 'outstanding' at the age of 18.

Claudius

I don't know. I watched about as much La Liga as Premier League about 10 years ago, and I remember thinking Eto'o would be on the Real team if they didn't have all those Galacticos. He looked the part.

I am hoping that you are right, and one of these boys will turn into world beaters. My experience, however, has shown that in the last 10 years, the only young forward-minded player who has turned into a world beater at Arsenal was Fabregas and he already looked a gem at 16. I expect a healthy Wilshere to also be good. We've had junior captains and players with all sorts of hype such as Vela, Denilson, Walcott, Vela, Clichy, Aliadiere, etc. Few of them turned into stars. And you know what? United, Spurs, Chelsea and others have also had tons of kids come through. Only Bale and Rooney have emerged as stars from that lot. Rooney was a clear star at 17, and Bale is blooming a little later, which fits your exception.

Song fits the profile of a player who seemed a bit plain earlier on, but it's not unusual for his position for players to blossom later.

Mirth

I'm not necessarily saying Ryo will make it.

And you're absolutely right, it's hard for young players to breakthrough unless they're something special early on because Arsenal have higher standards than a club like West Ham for instance. But if you're going to write them off, do so because there's something about their game that you don't like and not just, 'Oh he's not going to make it because Vela, Denilson, Bendtner, JET did not turn out to be any thing special.' It's an easy criticism to make because the odds will always work in your favour but not necessarily a fair assessment of the player himself. And you don't need to be a world beater to make a good contribution if you're mentally sound and willing to learn. Ray Parlour anyone?

And I always like Aliadiere. 🙁

Claudius

Fair points, GM.
If I see the next Wilshere amongst our teenagers, I'll be sure to point him out. I've truly got my fingers crossed for Oxlade, but we've seen talented kids like Pennant and Bentley go the wrong way so, again, I'll wait and see.

Klaus

General Mirth wrote:
And I always like Aliadiere. 🙁

Tragic story, that. Injuries did him in. He probably would have made it otherwise.

Ricky1985

I agree with, GM. Each player has his own ability and his own circumstances, there is no need for sweeping statements. And to be fair, Cal, Bale and Rooney hardly had the same rate of progress did they? In fact, Bale couldn't really be a better example to show as someone who didn't follow your path. He was considered woeful at 20, and hadn't really done a thing in his career to mark him out. And if we were to look a little deeper there are lots of other examples.

Great players are usually great at 18, I totally agree, but not always, and that's the point.

Lukazan

Ricky1985 wrote:
I agree with, GM. Each player has his own ability and his own circumstances, there is no need for sweeping statements. And to be fair, Cal, Bale and Rooney hardly had the same rate of progress did they? In fact, Bale couldn't really be a better example to show as someone who didn't follow your path. He was considered woeful at 20, and hadn't really done a thing in his career to mark him out. And if we were to look a little deeper there are lots of other examples.

What? By who? That's a massive exaggeration.

Sure, he had a slow start to his Spurs career and every one had a poke and laugh at the run he was on without winning a game at his new club (which was down to how shite Spurs were and is perhaps an excuse for Bale's poor performances) but he was also held back with injuries too. Any one with a brain and a pair of eyes could see he was a talented player waiting to make an impact, especially if they'd seen anything of him at Southampton.

Anyway, my opinion on Ryo is that he looks exciting to watch but I've not seen anything that makes me think he's any more likely to make it here than most. We seem to have our youngsters bigged up so much and I agree with Caligula, it's very rare that they fuflill people's expectations. Denilson, Vela, Senderos, Lupoli, Owusu-Abeyie (😆 ), Merida (Messi and Fabregas rolled in to one, was it?) are all examples. Players like Wilshere and Fabregas are the exception. You watch very early videos of those pair, or someone like Messi or Ronaldo, and the talent hits you in the face, it's undeniable.

On the subject of Ronaldo, he is a perfect example here. I remember his first appearence for Man U as a sub against Bolton and it was clear after the 20 mins or so that he had that he was something special. I remember thinking 'Man U have got a real player here' and being very pissed off. It was just very clear he had a big future, he had that 'x factor' about him.

The only player we have who I am sure will make it and looks like a future star is Chamberlain.

There are also other factors that count in how a player develops too, aside from his talent. There is the desire and mentality which you guys have mentioned, but also the club he plays for, his team mates and the managers he works under. The same player under Wenger would develop very differently under Mourinho for example, obviously.

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