Disagree with all of that. There is something to be said for the last 3 seasons but you only have to look at the players that left us for bigger teams but just weren't their standard. Wenger got a lot out of those players.

He is killing us right now but I don't think any of that is true. On even the senior players - Ozil for me has at times looked better than he ever did anywhere and Sanchez in his first season scored more goals than he had done in a season.

In two of the last three seasons we led the table at the turn of the year. We would have won the title only if Wenger wasn't negligent of the squad. We didn't play the best football but we were doing what many Championship winning teams have done in the past - winning games without really played fluid football.

I can't think of a single player young or senior that Wenger "ruined".

He is definitely ruining Arsenal right about now and it's fucking infuriating.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? The term ruined?

We were leading for two of the last 3 years in spite of Wenger. He was playing a system that wasn't really working with players that didn't really fit and were only top due to some super human form from Ramsey in 2013/14 as well as being extremely clinical winning games with only one or two chances. We were leading last year due to the complete collapse of the usual suspects. And yet we didn't win in either situation as once the luck run out we fell to our usual position on the table. At no point in any of those two runs where we were topping the league did our performances match the points we were winning.

It's funny you mention that he was negligent with the squad. Isn't that exactly what I said when I mentioned he continues to underinvest and not surround our players with others who can play the style of football that would get the best out of the rest of the team? Negligence with the squad comes in many forms, and also include not putting a team on the pitch that is able to play to a system instead of looking like a bunch of square pegs in round holes. Like I said, he's not giving the players the right environment to fully maximise their potential. Otherwise we'd have won the league last season when our only competition were teams clearly inferior to ours.

You seem to be confusing this Wenger with the one we had before. He's long gone Rohit.

I certainly don't have any illusion regarding Wenger.

I got the impression you were alluding to individual player development, which is where I disagree. I don't just want to deride Wenger even though I want him gone now, right now.

It's convenient to not credit Wenger for Ramsey's form but discredit him for his drop in performance since. Wenger is accountable, hence should also get credit.

Also, we have seen teams go through seasons and win Championships whilst collecting points disproportionate to their performances. I think it's unfair to assume we would have lost the plot anyways even if corrective measures to aide the squad were taken at the right time.

Anyways, I don't intend to change this into a Wenger thread. Just that I thought is harsh to accuse Wenger of being detrimental to an individual's development, despite the last 3 seasons. The team's yes, not necessarily individual's, in my opinion anyway.

I still believe Wenger is great at developing talent but his impact wanes once they start playing against professionals. Wenger's game day management and team plan has been weak since day 1, and he's overcome it by fielding intelligent, supremely talented players who can overcome it.

But that doesn't always work and we're quickly found out when we don't have a team chock full of talent.

Wenger certainly made Ramsey the player he is, but he's also the one who has enabled his slip in form by not curtailing Ramsey's responsibilities and our team organization.

Rohit, I doubt anyone supports a player here. When we talk about getting the best out of a player it can't be to the detriment of the team. That's said I think it was actually a good move when he kept Ramsey on the wing at the start of last season where he could benefit both himself and the team.

At the same time I still don't feel we're getting the best out of our best players. Ozil and Sanchez may have racked up good numbers last season and the one before respectively but we don't play the type of football to really get them to perform throughout games. At the moment their impacts are through moments of magic on the pitch rather than consistent performances with players who are on the same wavelength.

Where I agree that he does get the most out of players is out of our scrubs (and players who should at most be squad players) and he does that pretty well at times even to the detriment of the team. Remember that experiment shifting Ozil wide to squeeze Flamini into the team? 

He's constantly failing the best players by not surrounding them with quality players. Or at the least he should be surrounding them with players who, despite maybe not being good enough to carry the team, are playing in roles to get the best out our best players and our playing style rather than the other way around by compromising our system and sacrificing quality players to make average ones look better.

Fair enough, I get where you are coming from even if I might not entirely agree with it. I just wanted to draw out a distinction between player development and getting the best out of a team by allowing individuals to flourish through the teammates they have or the strength of a squad or the style of play.

For example, I believe Mourinho despite his incredible success hasn't been a blessing for a number of attacking talents. I don't think Wenger has curbed players in that manner.

Rohit wrote:

Fair enough, I get where you are coming from even if I might not entirely agree with it. I just wanted to draw out a distinction between player development and getting the best out of a team by allowing individuals to flourish through the teammates they have or the strength of a squad or the style of play.

For example, I believe Mourinho despite his incredible success hasn't been a blessing for a number of attacking talents. I don't think Wenger has curbed players in that manner.

Oh, I agree. My original point about Arsene ruining players was only half serious half exaggerated.  I just think he's not getting the most out of some of our players (notably Ozil not having a mobile player to look for, one that will give Sanchez space and less likely to be double and triple teamed).  I also think he doesn't give young players the same sort of environment to do well that he used to.

I can't be sure of the environment for youngsters but one of Wenger's biggest failing in the last 2 seasons has been that he betrayed himself and it's sad. He just seemed to have abandoned his belief in young talent it seemed. We saw a transition period a decade ago when he went all youth. Almunia may have been our most experienced player. In my opinion he did exceedingly well because not all players were Cesc good.

Then came a period when results became paramount and he almost completely shunned the idea of getting a few youngsters in and relied on the experience of players that were either poor (Flamini) or unavailable (Rosicky). Iwobi for example was a breath of fresh air at the tail end of last season. His energy was fantastic and it was something we could have done in earlier on even if he wasn't physically ready. Wenger went years starting players who may have not been in that position anyways. There was a sudden emphasis on physical readiness though.

He's betrayed himself in many ways Rohit. We used to play some great football and people could kind of look past the fact that we weren't winning because at least we were entertaining. At some point something changed and we no longer looked like a team that was one of two players from great things. We'd sacrificed a big part of our attacking play in order to become marginally more solid and the trade off wasn't worth it.

Then you see what happens in games when we're winning where he puts on two extra fullbacks which just makes us more defensive but less likely to threaten on the counter or even keep the ball for that matter. He claims spending money for the sake of spending it is not the proper thing to do but he keeps doing so because he deems it as value for the quality whereas he keeps letting quality players move elsewhere for the sake of a few million pounds. 

He is so afraid of playing young players that even when he buys potential such as the likes of Chambers that he'd rather play a Squillaci, Silvestre, or Gabriel to keep that experience in the team whereas before bed put them in the team after a few months of bedding in. The guy is just a walking contradiction these days.

Jeff and Bielik look nearly ready to get some decent first team minutes

Jeff and Iwobi look like they're both gonna have an impact this season. Iwobi has to be a clear starting candidate right now. It's a bit of an indictment on the squad, but it also says something about the bloke's talent. He's already much better than all of the more established options.

As for Jeff I think he has it in him to be as good as he wants to be. Whether he makes it or not will basically come down to how badly he wants it. We haven't had a talent that excites me more since Jack emerged.

Iwobi will have his moments but I think he's still a bit immature. Neat, but ungainly in his motions.

He is clearly an intelligent footballer though, and as he grows in confidence I expect he will get even better.

Still on the fence about the Jeff. But I like what I've seen so far. He plays with a joie de vivre and lack of hand brakes that's good to see.

A really impressive showing from Bielik. Playing like a young Boateng.

Bielik looks boss

We should really be sending Jeff out on a decent loan this season. Playing a bit in the CC would be alright for him, but he could easily pick up some minutes for a mid table Ligue 1 side

http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/11/transfer-zone/2016/08/17/26610422/arsenal-youngster-chris-willock-wanted-by-brentford-on-loan?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Farsenal-mania.com%2Fforum%2Fthreads%2Fplayers-on-loan-2016-17.29433%2F

Championship side Brentford want Chris Willock on loan for the season. I reckon it'd be a good move for him. Still not sure if he's really ready for the aggression that comes with proper football but he'd definitely learn a thing or two, even if he doesn't necessarily light it up in the pitch.

Hope our guys speak to their guys about playing time, there's is literally no point in sending a guy to another club for a loan only for that player to hardly feature. Gnabry literally lost an entire year whilst at W.Brom.

You literally shouldn't use the word literally.

Best to just not send any players to Pulis as he is a bloody toe rag anyway.