Youth team development: Page 19 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Youth team development

Ricky1985

Thanks for the updates guys. Sounds like we did alright, but home advantage told in the end.

It was me that said that, Rohit.

And having seen Sanogo, I still think the same now. Sanogo's got decent ability and the tools to become a good player, but I don't think he's any more gifted than Akpom. And I think Akpom's development this season has suffered as a result of Sanogo's presence in the squad. He's had a really, really poor season to date. Hardly scored for the Reserves and has looked out of sorts whenever I've watched him. His loan at Coventry has reinvigorated him recently, but I'm sure Sanogo taking minutes and inclusions match day squads has done his confidence no good and stalled his development. Competition's good, always, but, in this case, I really think there's a little bit of Wenger trying to do his part for French football.

Clrnc

Never rated Toral until I saw the match today. He looked really interesting.

Also didnt think Olsson would have a future, but he was great yesterday.

yuv

Some thoughts (for Ricky, and others):
Team looked very good. That sense that "we don't belong with the very top", which in recent years cannot be denied regarding the senior team, is not relevant to the youngsters. These guys, with a bit more luck, could have thrashed Barca last night, and no one could complain.

The attitude is spot on - they really do go for the win - and that's encouraging to see. Watching them I was thinking "this is the first post experiment generation" - these guys are allowed to play at youth level till they are really ready. Gnabs and Zel had chances with the senior team, But only Gnabry could be considered ready. or on the verge of. And he could still be sent back for further touches, it only does him good.

I'll get to the Akpom question, but seeing Olson do so well made me think this would have (or could have) been sacrificed in yesteryears - he'd have been deemed "where will he fit in?" and cut loose. But now he plays on, and I think yesterday he showed he still has a chance (Ricky - you always believed in him if I remember, but I think even you were not sold on him making it with us).

Which brings me to Akpom: I do agree there's a question about Sanogo or him. I don't agree it was a bad call (or at least not for that reason): 1. he gets to play with the youth, and to me in this form it's not a bad thing (for the reasons mentioned above). 2. who's to say between him and Sanogo? we can't even call it now, I don't think we could possibly have called it earlier. Both good prospects, both had something going for them, and who ever proves better in reality stays. I think the idea that Akpom would have made a difference is a tad optimistic (though given Sanogo's injury could have been a good one anyway).

There was no Hayden (at least when I was watching), but the defense in general didn't look good. The signs for Bellerin are good though: looks like he is improving his defensive play (which is what was missing).
All in all it was an encouraging peek.

ludovicvanzis

Ricky, did you really want a 17yo to be second choice for us this season? Sanogo isn't very experienced either but he has actually previously played professional, competitive football.

Bold Tone

That's not my impression of what Ricky said. I, also, didn't watch the game but i think he feels that Sanogo's promotion has affected Akpom's progression mentally. Akpom was a potential prodigy, as he did look really good as a 15/16 year old, but his development seems to have stalled, somewhat.

Burnwinter

When the relative strengths of two players are a bit unclear, always makes sense to me to assume the manager and coaches are basing their decisions on all the moments we haven't seen ...

Tam

Bold Tone wrote:
That's not my impression of what Ricky said. I, also, didn't watch the game but i think he feels that Sanogo's promotion has affected Akpom's progression mentally. Akpom was a potential prodigy, as he did look really good as a 15/16 year old, but his development seems to have stalled, somewhat.

If he's not good enough to bounce back mentally from this type of challenge to his role or potential future inclusion in the squad, I don't think he's the type of player I want in the first team. I know that seems slightly harsh on what is still essentially a kid but this is a cut throat business now, you can either handle it and step up or go the way of dozens of others over the years and make a decent career elsewhere.

I'm glad he's being challenged like that. I don't want kids in the first team who have been handed in on a plate having been patted on the head for years being told how prodigious they are, I want them to have to work for it regardless of their talent and have to fight their way into the first team. We're at the stage as a club now where we can afford to buy in ready made better players than what we've become accustomed to in previous years, that should hopefully mean only the cream of the crop make it through and kids aren't getting a chance in the first team because it's their turn off the conveyor belt.

Armor

If Akpom doesn't make it because of the mental blow of Yaya Sanogo's signing then chances are he wouldn't have been much of a player for us anyway. He looks talented though. I'd say he's maybe 1 of 5 that has a chance of making it here.

Edit - basically what Tam said

speedy

Burnwinter wrote:
When the relative strengths of two players are a bit unclear, always makes sense to me to assume the manager and coaches are basing their decisions on all the moments we haven't seen ...

It's easy to judge talent in training as drills are specific to segments of the game, like passing, shooting, movement off the ball or dribbling. You can very quickly see if someone is a bit special or severely lacking in a department.

Bold Tone

@ Tam
I agree with every word and think many of our kids have failed to make it here due to this very reason.

Dragan

Agreed with Tam. Also its not like they are the same age, Sanogo is 2 and a half years older which is significant in terms of young players. Akpom should get a championship loan next season to continue his development. The game has become a lot more physical in recent years and you don't see many young strikers taking top leagues by storm, especially in the mold of Akpom who need to battle out and hold off challenges of PL defenders. This is the main reason why midfielders and wingers get chances earlier since with pace, dribbling, passing skills you can somewhat compensate for lack of strength, which isn't the case for strikers.

Dragan

Bellerin turns 19 today, he's reaching a stage where he needs first team football if he is going to make it with us. He's certainly shown potential but how close is he to being a finished product? We need to loan one of him or Jenko out next season and he seems to be the prime candidate.

Bold Tone

Do you think Bellerin is strong/developed enough to be a number 2 left back?
I ask this question from the standpoint of complete ignorance of his current level of development.

Rex

I'd rather give Bellerin games than Jenkinson tbh. Jenkinson is more robust and currently a bit better defensively 1 v 1, but Bellerin seems the most likely replacement for Sagna long term. When Sagna is phased out in three years' time, hopefully.

yuv

Rex wrote:
I'd rather give Bellerin games than Jenkinson tbh. Jenkinson is more robust and currently a bit better defensively 1 v 1, but Bellerin seems the most likely replacement for Sagna long term. When Sagna is phased out in three years' time, hopefully.

If Bac leaves in 3 years there's no problem. But we all know he's as good as gone.
In which case the question is who would be the number 2 (would be an absolute catastrophe if No is not somebody signed as direct replacement). I can see the temptation to give Bellerin minutes, as the corporal is never going to cut it (probably). But at this moment in time (though I've seen very little of him in recent months) I'd say Bellrin is not ready (doubt he will be till August). if he manages to eclipse Jenks next year that would be nice, but it still looks a bit early to me. we need a defender that can defend, even if he's cute going forward.

Tactics

Jenks looked poor in the 1st half of the season, but I'd say he's looked good since the turn of the year (the few times he's played). And he looked very good last season when he had a run in the side, didn't agree with the decision to drop him after Sagna's return.

I hope we hold on to Sagna or at the very least bring in a replacement for him, but I wouldn't write off Jenks.

MistaT

Think Barca's #23 is available?

Ricky1985

Bold Tone wrote:
That's not my impression of what Ricky said. I, also, didn't watch the game but i think he feels that Sanogo's promotion has affected Akpom's progression mentally. Akpom was a potential prodigy, as he did look really good as a 15/16 year old, but his development seems to have stalled, somewhat.

That's all I'm saying. I don't think Akpom should be anywhere near the first team, but neither should Sanogo. Given the underwhelming (crap) pool of strikers at the club heading into the season, I think Akpom did well enough for the Reserves last season and in pre-season to earn himself the chance to sit behind Giroud and Bendtner and push hard for any available minutes. For me, it becomes unfair when Wenger signs kids for the squad he promises them the world and then the idea of earning minutes on merit goes out the window a little bit - in my opinion.

And I totally agree, Tam - I want the best of the best at Arsenal, regardless of where they come from - and if Akpom can't rise to the challenge then he was probably never good enough to begin with. However, as Wenger has said many times himself, a big part of 'making it' is being at the right club and getting the right opportunity. As I said above, I truly believe, regardless of who deserved it more, Akpom was on to a loser this season the moment Sanogo joined. Hard not to be disheartened by that, or to train as hard when you're back training with the Reserves again. Especially as we seem to be poor at finding good loans for our young players.

Ricky1985

yuv wrote:
Some thoughts (for Ricky, and others):
Team looked very good. That sense that "we don't belong with the very top", which in recent years cannot be denied regarding the senior team, is not relevant to the youngsters. These guys, with a bit more luck, could have thrashed Barca last night, and no one could complain.

The attitude is spot on - they really do go for the win - and that's encouraging to see. Watching them I was thinking "this is the first post experiment generation" - these guys are allowed to play at youth level till they are really ready. Gnabs and Zel had chances with the senior team, But only Gnabry could be considered ready. or on the verge of. And he could still be sent back for further touches, it only does him good.

I'll get to the Akpom question, but seeing Olson do so well made me think this would have (or could have) been sacrificed in yesteryears - he'd have been deemed "where will he fit in?" and cut loose. But now he plays on, and I think yesterday he showed he still has a chance (Ricky - you always believed in him if I remember, but I think even you were not sold on him making it with us).

Which brings me to Akpom: I do agree there's a question about Sanogo or him. I don't agree it was a bad call (or at least not for that reason): 1. he gets to play with the youth, and to me in this form it's not a bad thing (for the reasons mentioned above). 2. who's to say between him and Sanogo? we can't even call it now, I don't think we could possibly have called it earlier. Both good prospects, both had something going for them, and who ever proves better in reality stays. I think the idea that Akpom would have made a difference is a tad optimistic (though given Sanogo's injury could have been a good one anyway).

There was no Hayden (at least when I was watching), but the defense in general didn't look good. The signs for Bellerin are good though: looks like he is improving his defensive play (which is what was missing).
All in all it was an encouraging peek.

Thanks Yuvie.

I agree it's a good thing that these kids can grow away from the glare of the first team. It means they have more time to develop before their games get picked apart. It just means we have to get much, much better at finding good loans for the very talented ones among them to really give them a chance of becoming part of the first team.

On Olsson, I've always thought he was very talented; outstanding touch, technique and intelligence, but he's really come on physically in the last 12 months. That was always the worry previously. He's got a chance of achieving something here now.

As I said about Akpom above, I never thought he should be involved this season but he's a big talent and I just don't personally see the justification for putting Sanogo in the squad ahead of him. We'll see what happens though, maybe I've judged him wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!

Rex

Akpom looked better in pre-season than Sanogo has done in his games recently IMO.

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