The YouTube Thread: Page 144 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The YouTube Thread

Ricky1985

I'm so annoyed that the brilliance of Arshavin that night was overshadowed by letting them score that late equaliser. I felt like smashing the pub to pieces I was watching the game in. I can actually remember grabbing the chair I was on and wanting to throw it as they scored! 😆 I'm normally only that angry if I'm at home and I'm not gonna piss anyone else off but that team had the most ridiculous habit of completely capitulating every single time it mattered.

And six years!? Six fucking years? Impossible!

Clrnc

Burnwinter™ wrote:
Arshavin was great right up until summer 2009. All of six months, then his attitude went to shit.

I think he was better than that. He was still very good in his first year after that summer, then started going downhill in the 2nd year. And even when he was pretty lacklustre in his 3rd year, he still put in very good numbers for goals and assists. Just a wasted talent.

Ricky1985 wrote:
I'm so annoyed that the brilliance of Arshavin that night was overshadowed by letting them score that late equaliser. I felt like smashing the pub to pieces I was watching the game in. I can actually remember grabbing the chair I was on and wanting to throw it as they scored! 😆 I'm normally only that angry if I'm at home and I'm not gonna piss anyone else off but that team had the most ridiculous habit of completely capitulating every single time it mattered.

And six years!? Six fucking years? Impossible!

Talking about overshadowed, I was furious with issue on the Walcott run in UCL....

Burnwinter

Clrnc wrote:
Burnwinter™ wrote:
Arshavin was great right up until summer 2009. All of six months, then his attitude went to shit.

I think he was better than that. He was still very good in his first year after that summer, then started going downhill in the 2nd year. And even when he was pretty lacklustre in his 3rd year, he still put in very good numbers for goals and assists. Just a wasted talent.

His "numbers" were still good during 09-11 but he pretty much wasn't working for the team. His effort dropped through the floor meaning we were often exposed defensively. And that got worse and worse as he whinged more and more.

Irishgunner

Clrnc wrote:
Ricky1985 wrote:
I'm so annoyed that the brilliance of Arshavin that night was overshadowed by letting them score that late equaliser. I felt like smashing the pub to pieces I was watching the game in. I can actually remember grabbing the chair I was on and wanting to throw it as they scored! 😆 I'm normally only that angry if I'm at home and I'm not gonna piss anyone else off but that team had the most ridiculous habit of completely capitulating every single time it mattered.

And six years!? Six fucking years? Impossible!

Talking about overshadowed, I was furious with issue on the Walcott run in UCL....

That was heartbreaking 🙁

Meatwad

yeah i wasn't mad about that, just sad.

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter™ wrote:
Arshavin was great right up until summer 2009. All of six months, then his attitude went to shit.

Had nothing to do with attitude, he just wasn't a very good footballer. If he was, then he certainly would have gotten out of the Russian League by the time he was 27 years old. He's really just another in a long line of Euro/World Cup flops like Milan Baros et al. The only thing that differentiates him from that list is how long we persisted with rolling him out onto the field for him to sabotage the team with his fucking horrific performances and the level of denialism that our fanbase had that maybe this 27 year old we got from the Russian League wasn't all that good.

Burnwinter

You're right, not particularly talented.

Irishgunner

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter™ wrote:
You're right, not particularly talented.

Charlie Adam scored from 65 yards just two weeks ago.

Burnwinter

Charlie Adam couldn't score a goal like that in laboratory conditions.

est

Arshavin's talent being questioned... 😆

That video does that goal no justice though. Deserves at least 60fps.

Burnwinter

I'd like a super-HFR ultra-zoom video of his foot during that tiny half-second backlift. Fetish-y. :drool:

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter™ wrote:
Charlie Adam couldn't score a goal like that in laboratory conditions.

Okay. And I'm sure there are literally thousands of people in the world that could do more keepie-uppies than Alexis Sanchez. I don't know what your point is. My point is that if some club buys a 27 year old out of the Russian League and said player goes on to perform poorly, then the most likely hypothesis by far is that said player was never very good to begin with. I don't know what that has to do with his ability to score some nice goals every once in a while.

Burnwinter

Diaby KungFu wrote:
I don't know what your point is.

My point is that Arshavin was certainly a talented footballer. Don't be tediously obtuse.

I actually agree, in some sense, with the assertion that he wasn't a very good footballer. He wasn't physically or psychologically conditioned for the Premier League that's for sure. As I said above.

So, shall we agree to heatedly agree?

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter™ wrote:
Diaby KungFu wrote:
I don't know what your point is.

My point is that Arshavin was certainly a talented footballer. Don't be tediously obtuse.

I actually agree, in some sense, with the assertion that he wasn't a very good footballer. He wasn't physically or psychologically conditioned for the Premier League that's for sure. As I said above.

So, shall we agree to heatedly agree?

I don't really see any distinction between being "talented" and being a good footballer. I don't really see any meaningful way to define one's "talent" at football than their ability to help their team win when they play. I can concede that he had some rare skills (ball-striking and vision are the two that come to mind), but I wouldn't consider him "talented" in the totality. Far from it, in fact. Calling him "talented" seems to imply to me that you believe in the existence of some alternate universe where Arshavin was a success at Arsenal. For the life of me, I just can't see how that would have been possible.

Clrnc

Seriously you don't think Arshavin is talented? On his day he is pretty much unplayable. Just ask Holland, Bayern and Rangers back in 2008 etc.

By your theory, all the late bloomers ain't talented as well.

If having some flaws in your game = not being a good footballer, I am sure we can find many.

Burnwinter

Diaby KungFu wrote:
I don't really see any distinction between being "talented" and being a good footballer.

It's a joy watching you attempt to iron out the useful nuances of meaning in English vocabulary.

"Talented footballer" and "good footballer" mean two different things.

Diaby KungFu wrote:
I don't really see any meaningful way to define one's "talent" at football than their ability to help their team win when they play.

This may help:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talent?s=t

Diaby KungFu wrote:
I can concede that he had some rare skills (ball-striking and vision are the two that come to mind),

See videos above posted to illustrate these qualities in advance of your seal of approval.

Diaby KungFu wrote:
but I wouldn't consider him "talented" in the totality. Far from it, in fact.

I confess this comes as no surprise, as you've devised your own idiosyncratic meaning for the word and arbitrarily broadened the scope of a player's attributes to which you insist it must apply.

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Calling him "talented" seems to imply to me that you believe in the existence of some alternate universe where Arshavin was a success at Arsenal.

An impressively contradictory hermeneutical manoeuvre, given that my opening comment in this conversation was that he was utter shit for us after his first six months at the club.

Diaby KungFu wrote:
For the life of me, I just can't see how that would have been possible.

It's perfectly possible, within the limits of your knowledge, that I believe in alternate universes.

DiabyKungFu

special natural ability or aptitude:
a capacity for achievement or success; ability:

"Special natural ability or aptitude" for hitting a football or seeing a vertical pass, yes. "Special natural ability or aptitude" for football in general, no. If he had "a capacity for achievement or success; ability" then it likely either would have been spotted somewhere, sometime by somebody while he was at his physical peak. What's difficult to understand about that?

Also, I wouldn't really describe Arshavin as a "late bloomer". I'd describe him more as a "never bloomer" who had an 18 month purple patch.
Nevertheless, late bloomers certainly do exist though. My point is that they ought to be treated with great skepticism until they prove themselves which Arshavin never really did.

Clrnc

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Also, I wouldn't really describe Arshavin as a "late bloomer". I'd describe him more as a "never bloomer" who had an 18 month purple patch.
Nevertheless, late bloomers certainly do exist though. My point is that they ought to be treated with great skepticism until they prove themselves which Arshavin never really did.

If you consider 2005 to 2010 or arguably even 2011 a purple patch, then fair enough.

You really can't use how late he moved from Russian League as a gauge, because it's always like this with the Eastern Europeans in their own league. He single handedly dragged Zenit to a European Title with one of the greatest individual performance in a UEL final against Rangers in 2007. You can go youtube about his goals and assists that year, there was one where he scored a superb solo goal against Bayern. You simply can't be not talented or not a good footballer if you can do those.

Is Gascoigne not a talent or good footballer just because he didn't cherish himself and became bad?

Bold Tone

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Burnwinter™ wrote:
Arshavin was great right up until summer 2009. All of six months, then his attitude went to shit.

[font=Impact]Had nothing to do with attitude, he just wasn't a very good footballer[/font]. If he was, then he certainly would have gotten out of the Russian League by the time he was 27 years old. He's really just another in a long line of Euro/World Cup flops like Milan Baros et al. The only thing that differentiates him from that list is how long we persisted with rolling him out onto the field for him to sabotage the team with his fucking horrific performances and the level of denialism that our fanbase had that maybe this 27 year old we got from the Russian League wasn't all that good.

I don't see how you can say that.
I would understand if the argument was about whether or not Arshavin was a Russian spy.
http://footballpsycho.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/former-arsenal-player-andrey-arshavin.html

In our squad i thought only RVP and Cesc and maybe Nasri were more talented than him, at the time.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-arshavin-is-talented-and-tenacious
http://news.arseblog.com/2013/04/andrei-arshavin-by-the-numbers/

Because a player flops at a particular club doesn't mean he is not a very good footballer.

Bergkamp flopped at Inter, Maradona at Barcelona and no one disputes their talent.

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