Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!: Page 157 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!

Biggus

Indeed, Wenger treats the club as his private fiefdom he is the sole arbiter of success,and that success is always conditional this or that must come first- This is completly unacceptable for a manager of a club with the means of Arsenal where winning must come first second and last.

Burnwinter

I wouldn't put it that way, I just think that Wenger is the ultimate architect of the current regime and the position in which we find ourselves, including both our disappointing recent results and our financial well-being.

In the end, you can't praise our financial management without accepting our mediocre performances, and you can't rail at our past penny-pinching while cheering about the cash we could have to spend on players this summer. Those are the two sides of the Wenger coin.

Biggus

Well no one denies that Wenger is responsible in large part for our rude financial health, but in that case wtf is he doing on the bench with his cheap mediocre players his bizarre tactical decisions and his stupid persistence with a style which is simply too naive and not physical enough for the premiership, Wenger belongs upstairs with the bean counters.
When people look at Man Utd from the future they're not going to marvel at how their marketing division performed they'll only care about Fergie and all the trophies he won.

Burnwinter

his stupid persistence with a style which is simply too naive and not physical enough for the premiership

With all due respect to your well-known view on this Biggs, when you look at our results vs spending it's very unclear to me that our basic tactics are at the root of our lack of trophies.

I'd slate it back to our lack of top quality players and our lack of match day mojo. Wenger gets tactically sucker-punched more often than he should, but it's not our base tactics but our specific weaknesses that get exploited, as well as Wenger's preference to "play our game" for the longest possible time before responding.

Take for example our reliance on Arteta which Ferguson exploited earlier this season by gluing Rooney to him, or the various times teams have attacked our weakest fullback relentlessly without a reaction from Wenger.

Biggus

Well "our lack of top quality players and our lack of match day mojo" are a direct result of the type of game and hence the type of player Wenger has chosen, okay you don't have to be a 2 metre monster but he overemphasises technique (as opposed to other qualities like robustness and tenacity) and these players tend to be smaller and lighter and so the vicious circle continues.
As you mention we've all sat dumbfounded as a team constantly kills us in a certain area while Wenger refuses to change anything till the regulation 70th minute......
If we can see it surely the bench can too, no wonder Steve Bould has pulled out all his hair.

Burnwinter

Again, I'm forced to disagree.

I agree we don't have particularly physical players compared to the sides above us in the table (although Chelsea seem to be "midgetising" gradually as it were), but if we did, we'd therefore have less technical players and results would still suffer accordingly.

Players who combine world class technique with great pure athleticism are very expensive.

Obvious point of comparison is Moyes, whose parsimonious management at Everton is currently enjoying critical praise as his transition to United becomes official. He's consistently signed big, energetic and physically gifted players, he's spent slightly more than Wenger on transfers, and he's never achieved a better league result.

Wenger's fault isn't his basic tactical approach or his acumen concerning players - it's the fact he doesn't spend.

Qwiss

Asterix wrote:
Seems to hint there is a change in mood at the club and a willingness by all to bring in an expensive player or two.

Of course he hints at that when its membership and ST renewal time.

Biggus

@ Burnsy- It's too simplistic just to compare Moyes' Everton with Wengers' Arsenal, two very different clubs with different coaching staff and levels of expectation, transfer fees are only one aspect as you know- wages must also be considered.
Next season we'll get another chance to compare Moyes and Wenger in more depth.

y va marquer

My main interest now in relation to Kroenke and Co is in seeing whether these new commercial deals puts an end to our policy of cashing in on players at the expense of squad strength.

Biggus

Your loyalty is commendable Y, but you should let it go, it's breaking my heart to see you like this.

y va marquer

😆
I think I'm confused more than anything else.
That, and relieved that this infernal season is nearly over and for a couple of months I can escape been sucked into watching our lot every week.

I suppose maybe at the moment I have too much faith in the notion that Wenger will go for one last push before he leaves.

lorddulaarsenal

You're right to go into this summer with hope. If only for the fact that's its the first summer in years where we can solely focus on strengthening our weak areas and not have to worry about anyone leaving

kamikaze

Burnwinter wrote:
He's consistently signed big, energetic and physically gifted players, he's spent slightly more than Wenger on transfers, and he's never achieved a better league result.

you ignore our huge wage bill which dwarfs everton's. lets not pretend that we have a cheap squad. our payroll is substantial - it's our net transfer spend that is pathetic. imo, the overall result is that we are overpaying players that are not top class.

Qwiss

Yeah saying he's spent more than Wenger is just bullshit.

Timbob

"he's spent slightly more than Wenger on transfers".

Qwiss

So selective bullshit, its still bullshit.

goon

In this context it's pointless as pretty much every manager in the league has spent more than Wenger.

But even if you look at the big picture, we're pretty much exactly where we should be given our wage bill. Yes Tottenham and Everton have significantly smaller wage bills but that's why they struggle to finish in the top 4 while we do it every season.

Fact is, you can't slap Wenger down for assembling a shit squad due to a lack of spending, and then also slap him down for under performing tactically and as a coach. Given respective wage budgets and transfer budgets, we're performing at the level that we should be on paper.

Timbob

Burnwinter was making a point about football styles.

Burnwinter

Sure, our wages are higher than Everton's, I admit it.

My first point, which is that if Wenger had bought physically gifted players for the same money and played the "direct" game Biggus enthuses about, we'd have a technical deficit in our football, is still valid.

My second point is that no matter how good the critics may say Moyes is he's never done much in the league.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
My first point, which is that if Wenger had bought physically gifted players for the same money and played the "direct" game Biggus enthuses about, we'd have a technical deficit in our football, is still valid.

Well thats all pure conjecture as he never developed sought out or built a style to suite such players, we'll never know.

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