Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!: Page 140 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!

Kel Varnsen

Coombs wrote:
It hasn't been due to lack of playing staff.

it is now.

Qwiss

Biggus wrote:
Captain wrote:
It's a simple question: what have Newcastle done to even warrant being mentioned in the same breath as Arsenal?

Neither side has won anything in the last 8 years and both are mid table selling clubs.
Granted, I can't mention Swansea in the same breath as us now

Yeah but you define midtable as 2nd to 17th

Burnwinter

A generation of Biggusians think that "midtablesellingclub" is only one word.

Biggus

qs! wrote:
Biggus wrote:
Neither side has won anything in the last 8 years and both are mid table selling clubs.
Granted, I can't mention Swansea in the same breath as us now

Yeah but you define midtable as 2nd to 17th

Well how would you describe 4th place then, the minor top spot? the type 3 trophy winning spot?
That spin and bollocks is just an invention of the Hill-Wood and Wenger supporters to delude themselves that we are still somehow a successful team.
And is it not true that we sell our best players ever year replacing them with cheaper substitutes?

Coombs

Due to CL qualification, spots 2-4 are the second most important in the league in terms of material value, and are therefore clearly defined as better than mid-table. Mid-table, speaking in concrete terms, is anything below Europa league and above relegation.

All the rest is prestige.

But you know this already and you're just being difficult.

Claudius

midtable is 5th to 17th.
if youre not going to Champions League or the Championship, you're midtable.

Biggus

Not really, 2nd and 3rd provide automatic qualification to the group stages and 4th provides entry to the last qualifying round- Unless the previous years winner has come from the same league and finished even lower than 4th.
And of course this arrangement depends on a country's coefficient and is subject to change.
Also unless the teams that qualified subsequently go on to actually win the CL their positions are just prestige too.
But you know this already and you're just being difficult.

Coombs

@Claud, That's making a judgement on the Europa league, which is fine and all, but subjective nevertheless.

@[deleted], Only way I can see that the objective value of league places can be determined is by what you actually get by achieving that place. The idea that places 2nd-17th are equal is wholly incorrect in terms of their material value. Opinion, of course, cannot be dictated, but there is an objective hierarchy that should probably go some way to better inform our opinions. It's not "spin" or "delusions", it's very much a reality.

Biggus

Claudius wrote:
midtable is 5th to 17th.
if youre not going to Champions League or the Championship, you're midtable.

Whats so magical about 4th place? It didn't even provide a path to the qualification rounds last season.

Burnwinter

Tend to agree with Claud on this one.

Also, the relative fixity of the Champions League places (top three, four or five) suggests a persistent quality gap.

Biggus

Coombs wrote:
@[deleted], Only way I can see that the objective value of league places can be determined is by what you actually get by achieving that place. The idea that places 2nd-17th are equal is wholly incorrect in terms of their material value. Opinion, of course, cannot be dictated, but there is an objective hierarchy that should probably go some way to better inform our opinions. It's not "spin" or "delusions", it's very much a reality.

I never said that 2nd-17th were equal in material value Coombsy, every finishing spot earns more prize money than the one below it so 2nd would earn significantly more than 17th, at this present time they also earn a spot in the group stages of the CL (think of it as a free lottery ticket) but if you don't subsequently win your ticket is worthless.
Just because you got to stick your snout in the CL trough its a mistake to think of it as an achievement (unless of course you do subsequently win then its a magnificent achievement)- I don't buy all this Wengerish type 3 trophy bollocks- Thats just a cover for his failure.

CitizenNo9

Ok Ok chaps, the bottom line is if you are in a competition with no real chance of winning it, and with no chance of relegation, you exist for the sole purpose of giving legitimacy to the eventual winners. Qualifying for the CL is only relevant from a financial perspective especially if again perennially your sole purpose in that competition is to legitimize the winner.

We are not mid table in the true sense of the word but we might as well be and I think that is Biggus's point. A Spurs fan can argue with pride they are not mid table. An Arsenal fan should be too embarrassed to even try and defend it, we shouldn't even be in a position where even our worst rivals in trying to taunt us would even think of using Arsenal and midtable in the same sentence.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
the relative fixity of the Champions League places (top three, four or five) suggests a persistent quality gap.

Comment?

So now "the relative fixity" of the top 3 (or is it 4 or is it 5?) "suggests" a persistent quality gap......Thats where we draw the line between those born to rule and the middle classes in 6th place is it?

Everyone seems to have a different opinion where the aristocracy ends and the hoi polloi begins.

Burnwinter

Biggus might claim that 3rd (our most recent place) is, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to 10th, but you can imagine with what reserves of sangfroid he'd react if we actually did finish in 10th place.

And that, to me, is game set and match in this argument.

Burnwinter

@Biggs We very rarely finish below 4th. If all the clubs between 2nd and 17th were roughly equivalent, you'd expect our results to be uniformly distributed across that range.

And at any given time there are other clubs in a similar position that tend to do well. A vast amount of cash (to spend, if not to actually have) has, historically, been the only thing to much disrupts the PL status quo.

Biggus

I've shown that qualification for the CL is not a trophy and therefore doesn't entitle you to claim superiority any more than having 100% possession and failing to score does.
So at the end of the day putting aside the material (as Coombsy puts it) benefits, and from a fans point of view whats the point of material benefits if they're not subsequently put to work helping to win a trophy? 2nd is no better than 17th.

Heh heh people are so desperate to defend our relevance that nobody has bothered to challenge the other half of my assertion- That we are a selling club.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Burnwinter

I wasn't aware that "Hey! You're not disagreeing with EVERYTHING I said!" had become an actual strategy of argumentation. 🙂

So at the end of the day putting aside the material (as Coombsy puts it) benefits, and from a fans point of view whats the point of material benefits if they're not subsequently put to work helping to win a trophy?

In our case: better players, better football, bragging rights over Spurs, romantic European Cup ties, and, though trophyless, closer to a trophy than the club would otherwise be.

If places in the table mean nothing to you you certainly don't speak for the majority of supporters out there, for this or any other club.

CitizenNo9

The Oscars is full of celebrities, some current, some past stars, some up and coming, some has beens
Some get a limo sent to pick them, free clothes and jewelry,
Some have to make their own way there
Some forget their invitation at home
Some have to get their agent to fight for an invitation
Yes you were at the Oscars and you might even have been A-list at one point but if the press are not scrambling for your interview and the only reason we at home know you were there was that we caught a glimpse of you as the camera panned to zoom in on someone else, then you were just a part of the audience, "keeping Hollywood afloat". You may argue where you sit on the B-D list, but you certainly are no longer the A-list celebrities people really give a shit about.

http://voices.yahoo.com/a-list-z-list-celebrities-lists-mean-318894.html?cat=7

We are not an A-list club, whether we are mid table, upper mid table or whatever is mute!

Burnwinter

Let me fix that analogy for you (AntG would be proud! If he's sober anyway)

Winning the league is like winning a Best Picture Oscar
Domestic cups are like the Golden Globes or the Palme d'Or
CL places are a Golden Bear or a BAFTA and a couple of nominations
Europa League's the Audience Award at Sundance
6th to 17th means you made the Official Selection
Relegated? Straight to DVD

CitizenNo9

😆 Nice!

all I know is I used to get lots of banter as recently as 2-3 seasons ago. We are such a joke now, I watch Arsenal games in BBM silence. When Bayern scored the 2nd goal I got one happy smiley face from my mate, he couldn't even be bothered to type a single word, that's how pathetic we are now.

« Previous Page Next Page »