General Football News: Page 159 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

General Football News

Biggus

Fuck Birmingham, Kid is talking about us and he's right.

Is there something wrong with all your memories? We were on quite a roll up till that game, losing it and the manner we lost it knocked the stuffing out of us and started a malaise that took almost half the team changed to lift it, and there are plenty of quotes around from players that testify to that.
As it turned out it was a blessing in disguise as the ensuing chain reaction of events caused the meltdown that even Wenger couldn't ignore.

Cup trophies mightn't mean anything to the board of desiccated mummies and Wenger compared to their precious 4th place, and it seems some of you have been brainwashed into thinking that also (necessity is the mother of invention) but to most real football fans this is what it's all about- To see their team lift silverware.

Mirth

Of course losing the Carling Cup the way we did was a disaster of epic proportions, you're emphasising how important it was not to lose under all that expectation but had we won the cup I don't think things would be drastically different to what we see now. Winning the damn thing was more important than facing Barcelona but it does not transform shit players in the squad into world beaters.

y va marquer

Not winning the CC proved that whatever team spirit existed at the time was blown away by the loss.
If the team had actually been united as a group, if they all had been on board with Wenger's vision things would not have disintegrated as they did, even following such a bitter loss.

Losing the CC flushed out the malcontents and the players whose attitude to being here was holding us back.
Losing that final was devastating for all of us, you only need to read back over the match thread to see that.
People do and did care Biggus, but by the same token there's no point attributing some mythical importance to winning that cup.
Those players would still have wanted out and those who were just happy to collect a paycheck would have hung around being useless.
I don't believe anymore that it would have been some kind of watershed moment, transforming us from also rans to champions.
There were too many weak and trouble making characters in that squad.

It's painful to lose, I'd have celebrated that trophy but ultimately defeat exposed the whole set-up for what it was.

Mirth

y va marquer wrote:
It's painful to lose, I'd have celebrated that trophy but ultimately it exposed the whole set-up for what it was.

Indeed, as such we threw the final away and lost every game afterwards because that's what we were as a group anyway. Had we had the resolve to win the cup we may have had a boost that would spill into our league campaign but any success thereafter would have been because we are a good team to begin with.

squallkid

So Y va and Mirth you both are saying that we had to hit rock bottom (8-2 vs Man Utd) before we started our recovery and that the League Cup win would have only papered over the cracks.

Who knows, it's easy to look back at things and say that if X or Y had gone differently things would still be the same because the team would still be the same bunch of bottlers but my point is if they had won the cup then they wouldn't have been bottlers, winning the CC for ME would have been the first steps into making this team a successful one.

Even if everyone and their dog had still left, the likes of Wilshere, Sagna, Chesney, Song, Walcott, Gibbs and whoever else would know what it's like to win a trophy with Arsenal. Something that only Van Persie and Almunia in the current squad have at the moment.

Ray

Ifs and buts. But if we did win the cc who knows maybe cesc, nasri and clichy with a trophy might have stayed a little longer and we might have been above the scum by now in the league. Right now we have a good defence yet bar rvp crap attack if we had cesc and nasri along with the signings we made we might have been challenging for the title instead of totnum.

Mirth

squallkid wrote:
So Y va and Mirth you both are saying that we had to hit rock bottom (8-2 vs Man Utd) before we started our recovery and that the League Cup win would have only papered over the cracks.

Who knows, it's easy to look back at things and say that if X or Y had gone differently things would still be the same because the team would still be the same bunch of bottlers but my point is if they had won the cup then they wouldn't have been bottlers, winning the CC for ME would have been the first steps into making this team a successful one.

My argument is that if we had won the Carling Cup it would have been because we were not bottlers in the first place. Of course it may have spurred us on to greater heights as these things do but we got exactly what we deserve.

What comes first? The winning mentality or the trophy? 🙂

y va marquer

That's the way I see it as well these days GM.
Great teams, or teams with potential for greatness, don't allow terrible results to destroy them.
Our CC loss killed off that team.
Their one night of brilliance was the victory over Barca, if they had been what we hoped they were that alone would have propelled them forward.
They just didn't have the grit, the fight, the consistency, the unity and the belief.

And don't forget Squallkid that Cesc was here under duress last season, winning the CC would not have changed that.
He was out of here no matter what.

Captain

I would say that as a midfield oriented team, the injuries to Cesc and Wilshere are what 'killed' the team.

squallkid

Y va you could say the same thing about Vieira in 2005, players that want to leave as badly as Cesc and Vieira will leave no matter what.

Would you guys say that if we win the FA cup this year that we have the belief? Cup runs are always a different story to the league campaign.

y va marquer

No I wouldn't say the same about Viera.

Captain, those injuries were a factor but they don't account for the scale of the collapse.

lorddulaarsenal

Players wanting to leave doesn't always affect form. Look at modric

y va marquer

I'd rather not.

The Modric situation is different I think.

Biggus

y va marquer wrote:
Not winning the CC proved that whatever team spirit existed at the time was blown away by the loss.
If the team had actually been united as a group, if they all had been on board with Wenger's vision things would not have disintegrated as they did, even following such a bitter loss.

Losing the CC flushed out the malcontents and the players whose attitude to being here was holding us back.
Losing that final was devastating for all of us, you only need to read back over the match thread to see that.
People do and did care Biggus, but by the same token there's no point attributing some mythical importance to winning that cup.
Those players would still have wanted out and those who were just happy to collect a paycheck would have hung around being useless.
I don't believe anymore that it would have been some kind of watershed moment, transforming us from also rans to champions.
There were too many weak and trouble making characters in that squad.

It's painful to lose, I'd have celebrated that trophy but ultimately defeat exposed the whole set-up for what it was.

I'm certainly not attributing some mythical importance to the Carling like it was the holy grail, I said that losing it was a blessing in disguise as it exposed the whole rotten charade, winning it might just have papered over the cracks or it may have been the catalyst for greater things - we'll never know.

My primary point was people denigrating the domestic cups are wrong, and they're making a virtue out of a necessity.
We're in no position to turn up our noses at any trophy, for a man dying of thirst even an egg cup of water looks pretty good. 🙁

y va marquer

Beggars can't be choosers right?
I know what you mean.

We've got a decent shout at the FA Cup this season though.
Against Leeds Wenger played about as strong a side as he had available, and as was wise.
Learnt his lesson from last season maybe.

Biggus

We'll see what a "pathetic and irrelevant distraction" the FA cup is if we win it.

Yaya

squallkid wrote:
Same thing about Vieira in 2005, players that want to leave as badly as Cesc and Vieira will leave no matter what.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1206377/ARSENE-WENGER-INTERVIEW-The-transcript-Martin-Samuels-fascinating-meeting-Arsenal-manager--I.html

Incorrect. Wenger let Vieira go in 05, rather than Vieira being determined to leave.

lorddulaarsenal

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/2483/7425899/Harry-hails-wise-investment-

The guys a plank. Spurs have spend shed loads to get where they are. Third.

So hope they hit a wobbly patch soon

y va marquer

They are so full of it right now.
Harry says that if you don't enjoy watching the way they play then you should not be watching football :gah:

Well hate every moment of it, apart from their game against Stoke.
VDV thinks they will win the league.
The sooner they suffer some real devastating humiliation the better.
It's waiting for them somewhere.

Gazza M

we need to take them down a peg like the mancs always did to us. we need a psycological edge back

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