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Tony Montana

lagos wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
So to call you a nigger is ok because that is what you are.

Because a nigger is just another term for a black person.

Ok that's yours and Klaus's line.

What I say is that Terry should have called Ferdinand a fucking shit (if indeed he did actual mention race in the first place). If that's what he thinks he is then that's what he should call him.

His colour has nothing to do with his character. Why bring race into it? I'll tell you why, because people who bring race into insults really do, at least most of the time, think that it is the reason why you are inferior, abnormal or a unlikable person.

Ironically my above comment has been supported by Klaus's argument that:

Because Anton's inferiority is because he's a shit AND black.

You mention saying something in a moment of anger is ok but what you feel inside is what really matters.

My friend, anger is something that comes from the inside. It's not something that someone puts on you. And you can control your feelings and what you say. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I think in an attempt to be unpolitically correct, wise and "real", both of you have missed the point about racism.

I didn't pay any attention to the story, all I know about it is what I've read here and this is the first time I've heard the word "Nigger". I took it from Cali's post that the alleged words were "fucking black shit", black is not the same as nigger. If he said Nigger it changes it in the sense that you could say that he used a racist word but I still maintain that doesn't in itself make him a racist.

But he made a racist comment.

That's actually illegal.

Ok so you don't think he's racist. But if you murder someone you can't then say, 'oh but i'm a nice guy so it's ok'.

You pay for your crime.

As for the nigger comment:

You said the last time you checked, Anton was black so calling him a 'black shit' was ok apart from the 'shit' part.

But a nigger means a black person so is it ok to call any black a nigger?

Lagos wrote:
....and on the issue of trying to be "unpolitically correct" and your point about missing the real point about racism, i'll just say this:

Blacks have been in the states for centuries but it takes the first eligible offspring of an immigrant, to produce the 1st black president, Blacks have been in the UK for ages but it takes an Ivorian immigrant to produce the 1st black CEO of a FTSE 100 company, in my entire working life only once have I come across 1 black person senior to me who was born and bred in the UK....so why can immigrants come in avail temselves to the same opportunities available to "resident" blacks and suceed where they fail? That's the real point about racism at least as it affects blacks of the diaspora which you are missing, i.e a persecution complex (real or imagined) and an eagerness to define things in terms of race which ultimately defines them! Some of it is understandable when you understand the history of slavery but please that was ages ago. If you always think they are out to get you because you are black, or why bother because they won't employ you because you are black or they were giving you attitude because you are black, blah blah blah then guess what? the west is a predominantly white society, if you are looking for racism, you'll find it whether it's there or not.

What's the point of this? It has nothing to do with the Terry incident or even what I said.

Lagos wrote:
John Terry may be a racist who knows, but that remark in itself doesn't make him a racist even if he used the word Nigger instead of black. In my experience most people aren't racist but may have stereotypical perceptions due to unfamiliarity and let's face it we all tend to have stereo types about human groupings.

Yes all people have prejudice tendancies. We are talking about racism here, however.

Actions and words are extensions and expressions of "what is inside".

You bring race into an insult, and you have made a racist statement. And racist statements are made by racists, especially for repeat offenders.

Tony Montana

Klaus wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
You mention saying something in a moment of anger is ok but what you feel inside is what really matters.

I didn't say that it was okay at all. I said it was unacceptable. I just said it doesn't make him a racist.

Sorry that was aimed at Lagos.

CitizenNo9

Tony Montana wrote:
What's the point of this? It has nothing to do with the Terry incident or even what I said.

you introduced Nigger into this dicussion and lo and behold it was never a term used by Terry.
You said I was missing the whole point about racism or something to that effect and I'm giving you the big picture about racism, don't start a topic if you can't handle the truth

the point is if you are already predisposed to find racism, you will find it and if you are predisposed to see every little thing in racist terms, you are likely to hinder your own development. Too many blacks in the west find racism as a convenient excuse for their failures. The Indians come and they succeed, the chinese come and they suceeded, the Poles come and they succeed, virtually every other ethic group migrate to the west meet the blacks there and manage to make something of themselves. But no, my fellow blacks sit down on their asses, moan about racism and see any little comment in racist terms and wonder why they are always the most disenfranchised group in any western society.

Claudius

There is truth to what you are saying vis-a-vis natives and immigrants in the USA and UK, Lagos. But I think we are conflating two issues here. One is about a people's motivation (or lack thereof). The other is about using racist language. Calling someone a black shit is a racist comment. The best thing to do with racist words is not to use them with other people you are not familiar with. My friends and I call each other things like 'darkie' or 'curry', but none of us would dare use those words outside our circle because Americans as a whole are very sensitive, and even my girlfriend constantly complains about them. Derogatory words need permission from the target, else they are just that, derogatory. And even then, context is important. Don't say things that other people would find offensive.

Let's go back to another example of prejudicial language. Keys and Gray. They said the same sort of thing that a lot of men would say in private regardless of whether or not they really believe it. They were laughing the whole time. Who knows if they really believe that a woman can't run up and down a field and raise a flag when she sees something questionable. But context, a recording on camera, saying it in front of people who found the language (or them) objectionable, did them in. How dangerous is what they said, really? They don't select linesmen, so they cannot use their sexism to disadvantage aspiring women referees. But what they said was tasteless to society at large, and they should know better.

kamikaze

tony, i think you make many assumptions. if you call a girl a bitch, does that mean you are a misogynist? why mention her sex at all? why not just call her a dog? sometimes people say things in the heat of passion because they know it will hurt the other person. you may be right that more often than not, it may reflect the prejudices of the person who says it, but it's not always the case, and i'd feel uncomfortable painting every instance of the uttering of certain words with the same brush.

frankly, i think prejudices are a natural part of being human. the goal shouldn't be to misguidedly try to eradicate them by controlling what words people are/are not allowed to use. i find that idea terrifying, actually. the goal should be to make people aware that they may have prejudices, and to hope that those prejudices don't prevent them from ultimately judging people as individuals.

anyway, facts aside, lets not miss the point, which is that john terry is an odious and unpleasant human who should be prevented from continuing his tainted bloodline to the next generation. i'm sure we can all agree on that!

Tony Montana

lagos wrote:
Tony Montana wrote:
What's the point of this? It has nothing to do with the Terry incident or even what I said.

you introduced Nigger into this dicussion and lo and behold it was never a term used by Terry.

You said I was missing the whole point about racism or something to that effect and I'm giving you the big picture about racism, don't start a topic if you can't handle the truth

But I agree with your point about immigrants making it in the U.S. and the U.K. if only in part. (The Obama example is poor which i won't get into because it's way off topic). Why do you think I can't handle the truth? That's reaching imo.

It still has nothing to do with the Terry incident or my point about racism.

The point about racism I was making is that it comes from the inside which you don't agree with. Hence what comes out of your mouth is representative of your feelings and thoughts inside. That is unless you're lying.

I brought nigger into the equation as an example of using a derogatory word/phrase. I was asking if you thought, given that it means black, whether it is also ok to use that term. You think using black shit is not racist because Anton is actually black. Do you then think using nigger is ok because Anton is actually black?

nigger=black

I never said Terry used that word. But you knew this you're just being facetious.

Lagos wrote:
the point is if you are already predisposed to find racism, you will find it and if you are predisposed to see every little thing in racist terms, you are likely to hinder your own development. Too many blacks in the west find racism as a convenient excuse for their failures. The Indians come and they succeed, the chinese come and they suceeded, the Poles come and they succeed, virtually every other ethic group migrate to the west meet the blacks there and manage to make something of themselves. But no, my fellow blacks sit down on their asses, moan about racism and see any little comment in racist terms and wonder why they are always the most disenfranchised group in any western society.

Are you saying you think Anton Ferdinand is unsuccessful and so brought in the racism card?

If you think i see any little comment in racist terms then you're wrong.

If you think i am unsuccessful because I am commenting on a racism issue then basically piss off.

And if you think racism doesn't exist, you won't find it.

Meatwad

If you have to add someone's color to your insult, you're a racist.

I personally don't have a problem with openly racist people because I know where i stand with them. I hate the cowardly ones who try to hide it or try to rationalize it away because it's socially unacceptable. Be who the fuck you want to be and deal with the consequences of your actions.

It should not be illegal to call me a nigger or a black so and so, but if it's illegal for me to beat the shit out of you for calling me one then in fairness it should be illegal to call me that. You can't have it both ways, you can't be protected when you call someone names and then also be protected from the ass kicking that you're asking for. I believe in freedom to call people names and freedom for the recipient(s) to dole out swift justice.

Rex

😆 "dole out swift justice"...

Tony Montana

kamikaze wrote:
tony, i think you make many assumptions. if you call a girl a bitch, does that mean you are a misogynist? why mention her sex at all? why not just call her a dog? sometimes people say things in the heat of passion because they know it will hurt the other person. you may be right that more often than not, it may reflect the prejudices of the person who says it, but it's not always the case, and i'd feel uncomfortable painting every instance of the uttering of certain words with the same brush.

frankly, i think prejudices are a natural part of being human. the goal shouldn't be to misguidedly try to eradicate them by controlling what words people are/are not allowed to use. i find that idea terrifying, actually. the goal should be to make people aware that they may have prejudices, and to hope that those prejudices don't prevent them from ultimately judging people as individuals.

anyway, facts aside, lets not miss the point, which is that john terry is an odious and unpleasant human who should be prevented from continuing his tainted bloodline to the next generation. i'm sure we can all agree on that!

Yeah ok I see your point in bold. Fair play.

Racism is different from prejudice though.

I don't think telling people to not use race as an insult is misguided either.

Claudius

If you're bored, Red Bulls vs Galaxy is on the tube. So far, pretty good. Henry's had a couple of chances. Robbie Keane looks lively on the other end.

Burnwinter

Lagos wrote:
Slavery ended ages ago but somehow we have managed to enslave all races via political correctness.

Rubbish.

The spectre of political correctness that supposedly gags perfectly decent folk (most of the whingers just happen to be white, male and wealthy) doesn't even exist. The only reason you hear so many complaints about so-called political correctness is that - surprise, surprise - every bugger who feels oppressed by being asked to observe basic courtesies has a franchise, a voice and a platform, probably in the outraged editorial of the nearest Murdoch daily tabloid.

To compare it to slaves transported in chains to a life of servitude is utterly fucking laughable.

If John Terry called Anton Ferdinand a "black c**t" he should suffer the consequences. The worst that'll ever happen to him is a few matches on the sidelines so why defend him? If I said that to a black man at my workplace I'd expect to get the sack, and deserve it.

That isn't curtailing free speech, that's just the basic consequence of promulgating senseless patterns of hatred, spite and disrespect in a professional context.

The argument about immigrant blacks vs. the established political underclass going on here is equally nugatory. That's why they call it structural or systematic disadvantage - it means being raised in a world where your opportunity is fundamentally attenuated, from day one.

Immigrants come from outside that environment and thereby acquire different opportunities and different status, although it should be noted that many end up living out lives of low status in their new society. The case of Obama is pure anecdata.

There's only ever been one Catholic president of the USA. Guess they're waiting on a Catholic immigrant for the next one, because the local Catholics in the US don't have the right degree of get up and go?

Claudius

Burnwinter wrote:
Lagos wrote:
Slavery ended ages ago but somehow we have managed to enslave all races via political correctness.

If John Terry called Anton Ferdinand a "black c**t" he should suffer the consequences. The worst that'll ever happen to him is a few matches on the sidelines so why defend him? If I said that to a black man at my workplace I'd expect to get the sack, and deserve it.

And that's an important point. This is a discriminatory remark made in the workplace. Just like Keys and Gray. If guilty, Terry should get a ban that would make people think twice about uttering racist remarks on the field.

Biggus

You can't control what people think and say in private but you can control what is said in public, and we the majority don't want to hear rubbish like that spoken.

CitizenNo9

Burnwinter wrote:
If John Terry called Anton Ferdinand a "black c**t" he should suffer the consequences. The worst that'll ever happen to him is a few matches on the sidelines so why defend him? If I said that to a black man at my workplace I'd expect to get the sack, and deserve it.

His offence especially as England captain is to have said it in public and no one is defending Terry. The issue here is racist language v insult, however my point is whichever side of the classification you fall on it's not enough to label someone a racist!

Burnwinter wrote:
The argument about immigrant blacks vs. the established political underclass going on here is equally nugatory. That's why they call it structural or systematic disadvantage - it means being raised in a world where your opportunity is fundamentally attenuated, from day one.

Opportunities are created by society at large but individuals also have a responsibility to themselves to create their own opportunities and/or to be in a poisition to take advantage of opportunities created in society. Opportunities are fundamentally attenuated because from one generation to the next, they keep passing down this mindset that sees things in terms of colour, it all boils down to a persecution complex, a defeatist attitude and untill quickness to see and blame racism in everything stops it will continue. I didn't understand it myself till I got pissed off at one of my ex girlfriends who is african American for always seeing racial meanings into things. We spoke at length and I took from it the mindset has been passed down subconsciously from generation to generation. When Pdiddy says as a kid he wanted to be president but couldn't tell anyone because he would be laughed at, he captures what I am talking about.

Burnwinter wrote:
Immigrants come from outside that environment and thereby acquire different opportunities and different status, although it should be noted that many end up living out lives of low status in their new society. The case of Obama is pure anecdata.

Immigrants face their own challenges, but they also are faced with the choice of crumbling or instead doing what they have to do to overcome. Are African immigrants not black, do Asian/far east immigrants not look different, if there are any visual prejudices do they not face such challenges? Do people of different countries not face national stereotypes? More often a black resident will have an Anglo-Saxon sounding name so when they apply for a position there are really no indications that they are a black person. So why can people with obviously foreign names like Patel, Chung, Abdulahi and obviously African (and black) like Kweku or Ade get the good jobs and the local blacks with names like fergusson, Smith, Abbott don’t? Could it be as simple as because they aren’t qualified enough or they don’t bother to apply, they limit themselves from aspiring because thry've already made up their minds that as a black person their are certain opportunities not available to them?

y va marquer

Do people believe John Terry's insult was not motivated by his inherent racism then?
Is so how do you explain why he mentioned Ferdinand's colour?
Why didn't he just call him "a s**t"?

On the point of misogyny if you call a woman the c word to her face the chances are high enough that you might be a misogynist. You might not realise it though 🙂
Nobody's ever called me that to my face,
I'd steer well clear of anyone who did, so I can see why Ferdinand is taking issue with Terry.
He's right to do so and it has nothing to do with political correctness.

It's about standing up for yourself and forcing somebody who believes that you are not worthy of respect by virtue of your colour or sex to shut up.
They won't do it of their own accord so you have to make them do so.

It won't change their views but at least you don't have to be directly subjected to them when these people are around.

CitizenNo9

Tony Montana wrote:
I never said Terry used that word. But you knew this you're just being facetious.

Fecetious? let me remind you how the word enetered this discussion

Tony Montana wrote:
So to call you a nigger is ok because that is what you are.

Because a nigger is just another term for a black person.

Ok that's yours and Klaus's line.

there was no need to introduce it because 1) there was no accusation he used the word and 2) Nigger and black aren't interchangeable.
You can make your argument based on what he said i.e "black" without having to seek effect or reinforcement by introducing "Nigger".

Tony Montana wrote:
I brought nigger into the equation as an example of using a derogatory word/phrase. I was asking if you thought, given that it means black, whether it is also ok to use that term. You think using black shit is not racist because Anton is actually black. Do you then think using nigger is ok because Anton is actually black?

nigger=black

You think Nigger = black, that they are interchangeable? Seriously? Get a grip you’ve just described Nigger as derogatory, are you implying black is derogatory?
Then you say

Tony Montana wrote:
But a nigger means a black person so is it ok to call any black a nigger?

Make up your mind mate! Nigger is a degoratory term for a black person, there was no need to bring it up because it isn't interchangeable and wasn't used.

Tony Montana wrote:
Are you saying you think Anton Ferdinand is unsuccessful and so brought in the racism card?

Has Anton even said anything on the issue? Did I say anywhere that he is unsuccessful? Where do you get this stuff from?

Tony Montana wrote:
If you think I see any little comment in racist terms then you're wrong.

I didn't say so, you are being overly sensitive

Sometimes when I use "you" I mean "one" that's just the way I talk I'm not referring to you specifically the context speaks for itself.

Tony Montana wrote:
If you think I am unsuccessful because I am commenting on a racism issue then basically piss off.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry, again where do you get this stuff from? Why don’t you keep the arguments to what was actually said as opposed to what you think was said. I mean it’s in English, read again if need be.

Tony Montana wrote:
And if you think racism doesn't exist, you won't find it.

I said if one’s natural inclination is to look for racism, then you’ll find it even if it isn't there because gestures, words, mannerisms etcs are usually always interpreted based on one's predispositions, I haven’t said it doesn’t exist. Stop jumping to conclusions, you seem to have a habit of adding 1 and 1 to make 3 or 4 or 5

CitizenNo9

y va marquer wrote:
Do people believe John Terry's insult was not motivated by his inherent racism then?
Is so how do you explain why he mentioned Ferdinand's colour?
Why didn't he just call him "a s**t"?

I don't like Terry but is he a known racist? As for the color thing, like I've said, it's not unusual when trying to insult someone to pick the 1st obviously differentiating feature (which in this case is his colour) and wrap that in the insult, it could be colur, nationality, sex, religion whatever. If it were 2 white men it could be an English man calling a Welsh man a fucking Welsh shit or vice versa.

And I agree when it happens you don't take it lying down but at the same time you can't conclude based on that alone therefore that a person is racist, sexist, a religious bigot or a xenophobe

y va marquer

You're right Lagos you can't conclude categorically that they are racist based on that, they could be just pig ignorant 🙂

It's a good indicator though, chances are they probably do believe in the genetic supremacy of their own kind.

The attitude "I am a caucasian male, and by virtue of that fact, no matter how brilliant you are, no matter what you achieve in life I will always be superior to you.
Even if I end up living under a bridge and you become president of the USA."

That's the belief at the core of racism and misogyny.
People who believe these things are usually beyond the reach of reason.

Burnwinter

@Lagos I don't think it's worth getting much further into this, because it's obvious that we disagree at a fairly deep level.

You're on the side of the ledger that attributes the success of any given individual in large part to his or her intrinsic qualities.

I'm on the side that looks at the lousy social mobility indices in the Anglosphere and concludes that demography is a strong determining factor in socioeconomic outcomes.

'Race' is a complex factor contributing both to extrinsic social prejudice and intrinsic individual psychology, as is immigrant status. You're not going to convince me otherwise by citing a handful of individuals who happen to have succeeded despite difficulty, and using them as a basis to blame society's losers for their plight.

y va marquer

L'equipe have done a special on "Frenchies at Arsenal" to mark our upcoming game against Marseille.
Funny seeing Anelka looking so young.
I cannot ever remember seeing Grondin or being aware he played for us.
Pre forum days - severely uninformed regarding fringe players 🙂.

http://www.lequipemag.fr/EquipeMag/Reportages/PORTFOLIO_les-francais-d-arsenal.html

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