Agreed with the notion that we need 4 competitive CBs but does anyone honestly think that we would pay 8-10 mil for a 4th choice CB? Like Don Pacifico said bringing Williams means one of our CBs is off. Keeping Djourou for 4th choice would be ideal, but he will probably move permanently and we will promote Miquel to take his place.

Williams is far too good to be a 4th choice anyway.

We were lucky this year to get away with only having TV, Kos and Mertesacker tbf. Had injuries struck this year as in any of the last 4 seasons, at least, we would have seen Squillaci + one of the three above for a stretch.

Since Squillaci is defo off, and I don't think Djourou will return, we need another CB. Has nothing to do with whether we sell one of the other three IMO, and replacing Squillaci with a better player is a good move for the squad. Why should we at this point care whether he is first, second, third or fourth choice?

Sagna should be emergency 4th choice. Williams has a very good injury-free record, as does Koscielny. And Mertesacker hasn't missed too many games in his 2 seasons either. That lot should suffice.

As for Miquel you'd have to wonder why he wasn't on loan when we had Squillaci as cover this season but isn't he supposed to be going to Betis on loan next season?

Just to add some perspective, this is what other teams with similar playing commitments as us started the last season with -

Manchester United - Vidic, Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling, Jones

Manchester City - Kompany, Nastasic, Lescott, Richards, Toure

Chelsea - Terry, Luiz, Ivanovic, Cahill

Tottenham - Kaboul, Verthongen, Dawson, Caulker, Gallas

So, do you really reckon Ashley Williams is too good for a role that is being occupied by Smalling, Jones, Richards, Toure, Cahill, Caulker or Gallas? Also, note that all those players were either home-grown or bought for a price around 8-10 million or even more. (Gallas being the only exception but he has an enviable pedigree and is currently the fifth choice)

Do you still think the likes of Ashley Williams or Winston Reid can not be a fourth choice for Arsenal?

We have had horrendous spells with the likes of Sylvestre, Squillaci and even Djourou playing for the side. When we finally get rid of all three of them if we choose to replace them with blank space, we are done for.

At every club you've listed at least one, and often two, of those players is versatile enough to do a really good in a different position. Vertonghen, Richards, Jones and Luiz have all got most of their minutes playing at fullback or in midfield.

In addition, all those teams have one centre half in their mid 30's, thus needing a bit more rotation.

Iloveyouarsenewenger wrote:

Just to add some perspective, this is what other teams with similar playing commitments as us started the last season with -

Manchester United - Vidic, Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling, Jones

Manchester City - Kompany, Nastasic, Lescott, Richards, Toure

Chelsea - Terry, Luiz, Ivanovic, Cahill

Tottenham - Kaboul, Verthongen, Dawson, Caulker, Gallas

So, do you really reckon Ashley Williams is too good for a role that is being occupied by Smalling, Jones, Richards, Toure, Cahill, Caulker or Gallas? Also, note that all those players were either home-grown or bought for a price around 8-10 million or even more. (Gallas being the only exception but he has an enviable pedigree and is currently the fifth choice)

Do you still think the likes of Ashley Williams or Winston Reid can not be a fourth choice for Arsenal?

We have had horrendous spells with the likes of Sylvestre, Squillaci and even Djourou playing for the side. When we finally get rid of all three of them if we choose to replace them with blank space, we are done for.

Man United have used both Smalling and Jones in various roles. Yes, on paper they have 5 CBs, but only Rafael as RB and Jones has been used in midfield a number of times. Also both are young and happy to receive limited game time for a season or two before they take over from Rio/Vidic.

City have used Toure as 4th choice CB and he is likely off this summer in search for more game time. Richards has been injured for most of the season and has only 7 appearances of which some are at RB.

Chelsea have 4 strong players there, with Luiz and Ivanovic occasionally used in midfield and RB.

For the scum Kaboul missed the whole season, that leaves Caulker as 4th choice - 21 year old promoted from the club would be equivalent of us promoting Miquel. The reason he got plenty of game time this season is Gallas declining and Verthongen being used as a LB.

Why should we at this point care whether he is first, second, third or fourth choice?

We shouldn't, but that's not the way the club has been run for years now. We have 3 good players in their prime years vying for 2 positions and I can't see a player of similar age/quality being brought in as competition. IMO Kosc, Per, Vermaelen, Miquel and Sagna as emergency backup is solid enough. If we want to improve our defense we should replace Vermaelen with a better player or Miquel with a more promising youngster. Bringing new players without getting rid of old ones is not a viable option.

Caulker has had a year of regular Premier League football under his belt, so, he can hardly be compared to Miquel.

The Manchester United players are versatile, yes, but they have five players in there instead of four - three of whom are centre-backs only. Same is the case with the Tottenham and City lists where there are five centre-backs and have Verthongen and Richards who are versatile enough to play the second choice at a different position.

Chelsea are the only exception here with only four genuine centre backs in their squad.

Also, notice that off all the players only Ivanovich and Richards have been first choices in their squad as full backs at some point of time and even that is not the case anymore. The things is - the full back position is a considerably low risk position than centre back and it is far safer to use someone playing out of position (a midfielder or a centre back or even a winger) or a young player than in the centre-back position.

Gallas is about as good as Squillaci these days.

qs! wrote:

Gallas is about as good as Squillaci these days.

But on higher wages!

If we're serious about building a strong squad, we really should have four CBs.

I can see Williams being a lot like Arteta in terms of what he'll bring to the club, even if he won't be an automatic starter for us. By all accounts, Williams is an important leader in the dressing room, everyone respects him, he's premier league experienced and won't need an adaptation period. One of the things that's become clear about Arteta has been his importance to the team off the pitch and the leadership he's provided. It's something our previous teams really lacked.

Just to be clear I am not against us signing Williams, I just don't feel we can sign him and keep our 3 current defenders. We have Mertesacker 28, Koscielny 27 and Vermaelen 27 all in their prime years fighting for 2 positions.

Best option would be signing a younger, up and coming player who will be ok with having limited game time and eventually take over (Jones, Smalling at United), rather than having a player of similar providing competition.
Vermaelen regardless of his drop in performances is still a high caliber player who would definitely not accept spending most of the season on the bench and there's no way Williams would give up being captain at Swansea to sit on our bench.

I wonder could we bring Williams in and get TV back to being a decent utility man with a bit of training. He was awful when we played him at left back this season but he was thrown out there after not having done it for years. I wonder with a bit of training could he get some of that back?

from what i hear, he was never that good at LB.

for me, sagna as 4th choice CB solves this problem easily, with no transfer fees necessary. to put it in perspective, 8m pays three years of wages for a 50k/week squad player.

Not much point with Gibbs and Monreal around, he won't be much game time at left back to prepare.

Vermaelen's unlikely to hang around if we sign Williams.
WC coming up he's not going to help his cause by sitting on the bench here.

Good points. I think we should just cash in on him then. Can't imagine he'd want to stick around if he's stripped of the captaincy and we need to move the arm band to elsewhere.

Yeah, his time here is done.
Just not strong enough in the mind.
Move him on.