Premier League Managers: Page 7 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Premier League Managers

kamikaze

whatever his limitations (and i'd agree that he's tactically inflexible - wenger himself has admitted as much), the current incarnation of wenger is still better than the likes of di matteo, benitez and villas-boas. he's clearly worse than fergie (pretty much everyone is). but is he any better than the mourinho, ancellotti, grant, hiddink, scolari, mancini group? can move some of the names between tiers if you like, but the point remains. and this isn't even considering premier league managers outside the top 4, and all foreign managers.

Burnwinter

Di Matteo, Benitez and Villas-Boas are all wildly different characters. Don't think Di Matteo will have much of a career from here. Benitez is a sort of mad scientist type who will probably make a decent fist of most situations before shooting himself in the foot. Villas-Boas is a wonk who is currently doing a decent job at Spurs.

Mourinho, Hiddink and Scolari have a limited lifespan in any one job for whatever reason. Grant? Unproven in my opinion. Ancelotti is quality. Mancini seems to lack inspiration but I think he's coping as well as possible with some difficult personalities at City.

kamikaze

i'm not sure wenger's currently better than any of those i named in that tier. he's kept a financial top 4 team in the top 4 every season. so did all of them (more or less, since grant managed a financial top 1 or 2 team, etc.).

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
You're attacking a straw man Lagos.

As I've explained quite a few times, I don't divert blame from Wenger. This is his club and his status quo.

I just don't accept the thesis that he is, in pure football terms and given any particular group of players, a bad manager. Results don't bear it out.

I disagree, just in the aspect the selection of teams and tactics over the last few years any one of us could have gotten similar results, never mind any average manager.

Coombs

But Wenger IS a shit tactician. He won trophies with his ability to unleash player's potential, give them the platform to perform to their best. He hasn't done that for a long time, so it makes his weaknesses more glaring. His skill was also based on a certain global situation in football that he was able to capitalize on. He saw the future of the game and brought it to Arsenal, and to England. Unfortunately, we're in the future now, and he's still trying to bring it back...to the future.

I have no idea what the fuck I'm saying.

Biggus

Indeed the proof of a great manager is to continually get success from every group of players he manages, Fergi has done this Mourinhio has done this, Wenger just got lucky by being in the right place at the right time inheriting the greatest defence in England plus Bergkamp and having access to a golden generation of French players unknown in the UK.

Burnwinter

Every group of players?

You like David Moyes and the only thing he's ever won is the second division despite over a decade at Everton.

You like George Graham and the only thing he won at Spurs was the League Cup, and he presided over seasons where they finished 11th, 10th and 12th in the league.

The reason Ferguson and Mourinho have achieved success with "every group of players" is because they've more or less always had great players at their disposal. Both of them have won league titles off the boot of Cristiano Ronaldo: pop him in our line-up and see how we go eh?

Biggus

Careful Burnsy your slip is showing......Only a bitter twisted wowser would deny Fergi and Jose are great managers- much better than Wenger- regardless of your personal feelings about them.

The "only" thing GG won at Spurs? ffs it's Spurs! they should be delighted at anything they win they should build a statue of him outside the lane.

Burnwinter

No Biggs - you're missing the point. Even a great manager won't flourish without the support of his club or a good group of players.

You're setting yourselves up for disappointment because Wenger's far from the only factor holding us back from a golden decade of league dominance.

Biggus

Oh I know any manger would have his work cut out for him dealing with that bunch of stiff's they certainly don't need all the help Wenger gives them- But thats not the issue, we're just talking about his ability to exert influence on a game tactically, and I think we've all made up our minds- or rather the last 8 years have made up our minds on that.

Burnwinter

But thats not the issue, we're just talking about his ability to exert influence on a game tactically, and I think we've all made up our minds- or rather the last 8 years have made up our minds on that.

It's like beating your head against a brick wall sometimes.

My opinion: Wenger's overriding weakness since our last trophy is his refusal to go the extra mile to get us a competitive squad. Not tactics, not squad preparation, not man motivation, not substitutions.

Of course, it's actually more than an extra mile now, but it was only an extra mile or so back in 07-08.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
But thats not the issue, we're just talking about his ability to exert influence on a game tactically, and I think we've all made up our minds- or rather the last 8 years have made up our minds on that.

It's like beating your head against a brick wall sometimes.

My opinion: Wenger's overriding weakness since our last trophy is his refusal to go the extra mile to get us a competitive squad. Not tactics, not squad preparation, not man motivation, not substitutions.

Of course, it's actually more than an extra mile now, but it was only an extra mile or so back in 07-08.

Well don't bump your head Burnsy, my opinion is Wenger was never a great or even a good coach- Never won a European trophy etc......
He did bring advanced training and diet methods and as I said had a great deal of luck to be in the right place at the right time.

Burnwinter

Never won a European trophy, but he did lead us to an unbeaten league season (a clear proof of tactical ineptitude).

When it comes down to it, your definition of "great coach" is "wins lots of trophies" - except when it comes to Arsène Wenger who was just in the right place at the right time so it doesn't count.

As opposed to, say, Jose Mourinho who inherited a Chelsea side that had been evolving under various managers for several years, and a ream of blank cheques, and won the league playing a bog average defensive minded 4-3-3 with an incredibly strong squad.

Or Ferguson who happened to stumble upon the best single generation of youth players in England in the last fifty years, but in recent years has had title-winning sides repeatedly ground to mincemeat by Barcelona in Europe.

I'm not underrating either of the above as managers just pointing out that every trophy is the result of a multitude of factors.

Biggus

Fergi is a lot of things- A moaner a bully a ruthless pragmatist........only a fucking idiot would call him lucky.

Burnwinter

He's had his fair share, and only a fucking idiot would deny it.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
He's had his fair share, and only a fucking idiot would deny it.

😆 Touche.

Burnwinter

"what you call "a bog average defensive minded 4-3-3" is what is known to everyone else as tactics, tactics that won trophies!"

Sure but those tactics were not really any better or worse in relative terms in 04-05 than Wenger's in 03-04 now were they?

The introduction of the Makelele role neutralised lots of the (then) two man midfields in the PL, but take a look at the players Mourinho had and tell me that was nothing to do with it. 🙂 Now the league's full of effective three man midfields ...

Even if Wenger was a great coach, there is no denying he no longer is, he has clearly lost it. He has no rivals anymore that tells you he is no longer seen as an serious adversary.

Correction: we, Arsenal are not seen as a serious proposition.

But it's because of the players ain't it? The current league champions have a fucking literal metric ton of world class muscle in their lineup and United have a batch of absolute studs up front, not least Van Persie who's probably been worth 10 points off his own boot already this season.

We already know that because he tore the PL to shreds exactly the same way last season.

Timbob

Why are you only considered to be a tactically astute manager if your team are defensively superb. Its like getting your team to play the greatest attacking football the British game has ever seen takes no coaching or tactical ability at all.

Tony Montana

United and Barcelona teams are tactically astute. Recent Milan teams have been so. Bayern have been so recently too.

Biggus

Brilliant tactics are about reading the game and the opposition correctly they're about maximising your strengths and minimising the oppositions and your weaknesses, the objective is to earn the right to impose your particular style on the game naturally your opposition will try to do the same.
Great teams normally play with a certain swagger and confidence everyone knows how they will play and they leave it up to their rivals to try to stop them- Wenger acts as if we're still a great team and we don't have to earn the right to impose our style, sending us out the exact same way regardless of who is available and who we are playing, he's simply unable to comprehend the changed circumstances it's like a guy of 50 thinking hes the same tough guy he was at 20.

« Previous Page Next Page »