TBH haven't seen much of him, but he seems decent to me. Simple pass and move kinds.

Delighted to have signed him!

I think he's a top lil player who will only improve with time.

What?

Wrong thread.

Don't see the fuss either. Even Ramsey looks a better prospect. We have the only young British players worth having minus Walker and (maybe) Wellbeck.

I like sterling a lot. Also think smalling is a top talent

What about Evra and Van Persie, top blokes.......

He is over rated and will be just as james milner is (how on earth does he get into the city and england team)

The thing about Milner is - at least he never pretended to be anything other than a talentless workhorse. With Cleverley there's the sense that he is trying to be a flashy little prick...which is fine as long as you've got the skills, but he clearly doesn't. If he tries to be like Milner I'm sure he can carve out a decent career at the top level. But know your limits ffs.

SamDaGooner wrote:

He is over rated and will be just as james milner is (how on earth does he get into the city and england team)

Milner's only in the England team to hold Glen Johnson's hand.

I actually think cleverly has decent passing and view of the play but in comparison with others in that position he is very average. Milner has a touch of Hleb about him. Both very overrated.

Patters wrote:

The thing about Milner is - at least he never pretended to be anything other than a talentless workhorse. With Cleverley there's the sense that he is trying to be a flashy little prick...which is fine as long as you've got the skills, but he clearly doesn't. If he tries to be like Milner I'm sure he can carve out a decent career at the top level. But know your limits ffs.

No he's playing how he wants to play. If he fails then ok but at least he tried. He hasn't come off as a prick at all other than he plays for United. When Ferguson/United and England decide they don't think he's not good enough then he'll be dropped. Simple.

I don't think all English players should pretend to be something they're not.

Tony Montana wrote:

I don't think all English players should pretend to be something they're not.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. But we'll see.

Patters wrote:

Tony Montana wrote:

I don't think all English players should pretend to be something they're not.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. But we'll see.

So he shouldn't pretend to be a workhouse like Milner if he's not one.

If he's "flashy" and not very good then he's not very good. He'll be found out and leave United and be dropped from the England team. He shouldn't be "humble" if he wants to be a creative force.

Tony Montana wrote:

Patters wrote:

Yeah, that's exactly my point. But we'll see.

So he shouldn't pretend to be a workhouse like Milner if he's not one.

If he's "flashy" and not very good then he's not very good. He'll be found out and leave United and be dropped from the England team. He shouldn't be "humble" if he wants to be a creative force.

What you want to be isn't necessarily what you are.

Patters wrote:

Tony Montana wrote:

So he shouldn't pretend to be a workhouse like Milner if he's not one.

If he's "flashy" and not very good then he's not very good. He'll be found out and leave United and be dropped from the England team. He shouldn't be "humble" if he wants to be a creative force.

What you want to be isn't necessarily what you are.

He's not a workhouse player.

Just because you are not as good as other players at being "flashy" doesn't mean he should stop being so. Not everyone's of the same ability. For example Adams is not a top four player but his talents lie in that creative role (whatever it is). He was good at Blackpool and he will continue at Stoke.

For example, there are players in League 2 who play in a similar way to Cazorla. They're not nearly as good but it doesn't mean they should all just be workhouses.

Being a "workhouse" is a skill in itself as well. You don't just turn up and play like De Jong and be successful. Even then, the "workhouse" roll is adapting and it's more important to be like Arteta, Busquets, Carrick etc. It's not a secondary position or skill. Football is a team game and the keeper is often as important as the strikers.

Tony Montana wrote:

Patters wrote:

What you want to be isn't necessarily what you are.

He's not a workhouse player.

Just because you are not as good as other players at being "flashy" doesn't mean he should stop being so. Not everyone's of the same ability. For example Adams is not a top four player but his talents lie in that creative role (whatever it is). He was good at Blackpool and he will continue at Stoke.

For example, there are players in League 2 who play in a similar way to Cazorla. They're not nearly as good but it doesn't mean they should all just be workhouses.

Being a "workhouse" is a skill in itself as well. You don't just turn up and play like De Jong and be successful. Even then, the "workhouse" roll is adapting and it's more important to be like Arteta, Busquets, Carrick etc. It's not a secondary position or skill. Football is a team game and the keeper is often as important as the strikers.

Doing what you're best at isn't necessarily what's best for the team or your career. It's a simple allocation exercise. Lets take Arteta - we consider him to be a top DM. It's possible that, after Everton, he might've fancied playing an equally - or more - creative role but since we're better covered in that area, it was better for him (and his career) to play DM. And he's doing a fine job. Before he joined Arsenal I don't think many (if any) expected this to be his role. We would've said this is not his natural position. But he has adapted very well.

Similarly Theo's best position is probably as a striker. His relative strengths are finishing and you'll find many arguing that playing as the centre forward is his 'natural' position. But from the club's point of view (and not just Arsenal...other teams too), it's very beneficial to have someone out-wide who can chip in with a 1 in 3 goalscoring record, and perhaps the trend is now to have strikers who have a great all-round game.

With Cleverley, if he's not talented enough to be a great creative player, he should consider developing other facets of his game while he is still young. Competition should always an important part of your decision. The idealist view of 'just do what you enjoy', alone, doesn't work in any job market. You have to compare yourself with others in your position - if you're not up to scratch, try to find something you can compete on.

As for your last point - you're preaching to the choir. I was championing the talentless Jenkinson last season while he was getting criticised by gooners. I have a soft spot for players who are able to run around a lot. And of course it's not a 'lesser' role - but some roles require less technical ability than others.

And btw, I'm not normally pedantic but since it's being mentioned so often, I think you mean 'workhorse'.

I'm pretty sure Cleverley does, or tries to do, what Hodgson and Ferguson want him to do. They will decide where he plays.

If he has to adapt it will take time and it will be once his superiors think he should adapt. It's not in his interests to change his natural game because he wasn't good against Serbia. If you don't think he's good enough in what he currently does that's your opinion, not his, his teammates and probably not his bosses. It certainly doesn't mean he should be a workhorse who doesn't pretend to be a flashy prick. He can be his natural game elsewhere even.

Tony Montana wrote:

I'm pretty sure Cleverley does, or tries to do, what Hodgson and Ferguson want him to do. They will decide where he plays.

If he has to adapt it will take time and it will be once his superiors think he should adapt. It's not in his interests to change his natural game because he wasn't good against Serbia. If you don't think he's good enough in what he currently does that's your opinion, not his, his teammates and probably not his bosses. It certainly doesn't mean he should be a workhorse who doesn't pretend to be a flashy prick. He can be his natural game elsewhere even.

Right so we've gone to "Well, Mr. Ferguson will decide where he plays not you". Great. What the fuck are we doing here if we aren't going to discuss our opinions?