General Football 2012-13: Page 164 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

General Football 2012-13

Clrnc

Compared to Norway, the players pearce have at his disposal is so much more experienced and better. No contest.

Iloveyouarsenewenger

And Henderson and Zaha alone have cost what the entire Norweigan starting line up would cost.

The match finished 3-1 to Norway and our former reserve team captain Nordveilt came in as a sub in the end. England played much better in the second half and Norway had to make some good blocks and clearances to come out winners. But, the game really dried up in the last 15 minutes as players looked drained out.

Chalobah looks like a good player on the ball but he'll need to fill out more in order to be of any use at Chelsea.

Tony Montana

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22831838

What do we make of this?

I'd prefer to have a world class league than a world class national team if it was a case of one or the other. But the other top leagues; Germany, Spain and Italy, have great national teams so maybe Taylor has a point. They all have a higher proportion of their countrymen playing regularly in their leagues. But the onus of who plays in what team is down to the club manager. Apparantly in Germany they don't understand why their is such a disconnect between the FA and the Premier League. Football and nationhood is more important and they clubs and their FA work better.

Patters

The first thing that comes to mind whenever I read about an article like that is "dey turk err jurbs!".

Sink or swim, lads. Don't moan about compete with the likes of Bergkamp and Henry, be smart enough to learn from them. Quite simply, there have been too England youngsters with the mentality of David Bentley and not enough David Beckham's. We are simply not willing to put the effort in.

Timbob

These youngsters that aren't getting a chance could always back themselves and go abroad. Crazy idea, eh?

Captain

Mental.

Patters

Timothy wrote:
These youngsters that aren't getting a chance could always back themselves and go abroad. Crazy idea, eh?

Yes, a key point. As Brits, we generally don't like to get out of our comfort zones. There is not enough of an emphasis on learning second languages and we don't like to move abroad.

MuswellHillGooner

Norway outplayed us? Embarrassing.

Tony Montana

They could but I honestly don't think most English players suit other leagues. Possibly Germany but then they have better homegrown players.

Tony Montana

Patters wrote:
Timothy wrote:
These youngsters that aren't getting a chance could always back themselves and go abroad. Crazy idea, eh?

Yes, a key point. As Brits, we generally don't like to get out of our comfort zones. There is not enough of an emphasis on learning second languages and we don't like to move abroad.

You mean Brits in general?

Because there are tons of Brits in Spain and France. Canada, America and Australia have loads of Brits as well if not more.

I agree about the 2nd language thing but English is the world language so other nations do it out of necessity. We are too comfortable I agree.

Specifically in football, the English game and mentality is unique and perhaps too left field. We have and have had great players but they're not adaptable it seems.

MuswellHillGooner

I think, like the Americans, we've got qualities that would complement theirs.
I think Platt is example of this.

Captain

There are plenty of english players who could play abroad.

Joey Barton, for instance, has done well in Marseilles this year and he's a better than average midfielder who probably wouldn't play for any of the to four.

goon

I find the whole idea bizarre. There is probably a good 30 odd English players among the top six clubs, it's fair to assume that most of them would be among the best 24 English players, which is more than enough for the England squad. I fail to see what benefit would come from adding say another 10-20 English players playing for top 6 sides, when they're going to be worse than the ones already playing there.

Tony Montana

More variety, more depth and better fit of niche spots and roles.

Iloveyouarsenewenger

Playing with better players makes you better. Given that the top three to four players per position will always get to play in the top league, the current version of the Premier League actually strengthens the English national team and while weakening the C or D team.

The press are barking up the wrong tree here as it is an easier issue to highlight and pinpoint with stats.

JazzG

I wouldn't be surprised if the England U21s are probably the best paid out of all the other U21 sides and that might part of the problem. Sol Campbell was on the tele earlier saying maybe they think they've made it before they actually have and are not willing to put the hard work in. Quite rich Graham Taylor criticising the premier league, from 1967-1996 what has England achieved at International level? There is a real excuse culture in this country, just shift the blame elsewhere and not come up with anything constructive.

Another problem is poor coaching at youth level. When players are young they don't need a winning mentality instilled into them, they need technical skills and at a young level training matches which should be more about developing skills are more about winning matches. I remember some of my mates taking the piss out of the likes of Carrick and Rio because they were more cultured players, not the hard hitting type we like here. At a young age players need to develop skills rather than become specialists,

Up until recently Gareth Southgate Head of Elite Development for the FA, now I've heard or read nothing from him to suggest he would have a clue as to how to nurture young players. The FA is more a commercial organisation rather than an organisation looking at grass routes and maybe it needs to be split, so one side have the business guys doing their thing and on the other have more footballing guys. Like we have seen with Germany, Spain and France change can happen but it will take time, you need to put a 10 year plan into place and then see the results. The likes of Fergie and Wenger have been highly critical of the development setup. There is a power struggle with the likes of the Premier League and FA and nothing will change until some serious plans are drawn up with the clubs on board.

Here are some of Rio's comments on the matter on twitter

last 10yrs when have England played consistently well? A coaching strategy for our young teams/kids needs to be implemented to see change

In most PL teams retaining the ball is done best by foreign players in the team...they are taught to pass to a man with a man on #DealWithit

So called 'Golden generation' obviously wasn't 'golden'because we won nothing! Great players don't always make great teams.

In Holland they have the great ex players coaching.. Bergkamp, De boer brothers, Kliuvert, koeman etc all coached the next generation

Great players coaching within a flawed system won't change anything either...

"@henrywinter: Pearce: "The teams that come wi their strongest players and internationals to tourns win" > it starts way down the chain fella
For me u should b able to pluck an u18s player out n put him into the 1st team n not have to school him tactically,just school on opposition

Would not happen now at all for us,in contrast if Spain or Germany threw a u18 in he would know his role as these countries have an identity

We have some real talented u21 players too[/quote]
Just look at Pearce's comments, other countries are having their top U21s pulled into the senior team and are dealing with it.

lorddulaarsenal

Captain wrote:
There are plenty of english players who could play abroad.

Joey Barton, for instance, has done well in Marseilles this year and he's a better than average midfielder who probably wouldn't play for any of the to four.

English players generally tear it up when they go abroad

Daniel dichio was the best striker in serie a for a spell

Clrnc

Not too many of them plays abroad though. I find that in general Germans, Italians and English don't normally play outside their leagues.

Out of recent years I can only think of Woodgate, Beckham, Owen.

Tam

Colin Kazim Kazim Kazim Kazim Richards went to Turkey. A few Scottish boys have went gone abroad too, Mcgregor and Boyd to Turkey, a few to Russia and Derek Riordan even had a disastrous spell in China. Tends to be due to the higher wages on offer as opposed to any scope for career development though.

Iloveyouarsenewenger

Clrnc wrote:
Not too many of them plays abroad though. I find that in general Germans, Italians and English don't normally play outside their leagues.

Out of recent years I can only think of Woodgate, Beckham, Owen.

That is because they have very strong leagues.

Spain has a strong league too but there has been a gulf between the top two teams and others off-late and they have been producing a lot of top quality players in recent years. So, those players find themselves in other leagues as well. Once a trend is created, even players at a mid-table level look for opportunities outside.

I think, we are going to see a similar situation in Germany in the coming years. They are producing truck-loads of good players and don't have enough top clubs to keep them. Italy and England, on the other hand, seem to have a number of different clubs playing at a high level and are not producing top players in similar numbers.

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