Don Pacifico nor do I believe his approach to squad building is what's got us here

I don’t understand how anyone can reasonably come to that view. Genuinely open to hearing the justification as I just can’t look at the signings Arteta has made for the front three positions (excluding Havertz as that clearly wasn’t the original intention) and think it isn’t a contributory factor when you consider how widely he has been backed for other signings.

Tam it’s very easy to come to that view actually. For a few reasons

1) Forward market is much more competitive than defense and midfield market. Look at the money spent on guys like Mudryk, Sancho, Grealish etc. There are no middling defenders going for £80m. People just value forwards more (cos game is about goals) ans will pay much more

2. This cost is partly driven by low supply. Academies are training midfielders and defenders. Teams often have 1-2 actual strikers.
3. Some of our very best forwards were academy grads. So we didn’t have to go spend £150m on Saka and Martinelli. We’d made them.

Yeah. This season is a show of shit. But when Arteta himself has come out many times to say he wants forwards, and we’ve made bids, the idea that he doesn’t want forwards just doesn’t fly.

Tam because I still believe there are plans in place to fix our forward line. If I didn't think that, then I'd question our squad building.

Our attack was prolific last season. Despite this, we all knew there were still weaknesses, as did Arteta hence why we were looking at forwards in the summer. The fact we didn't sign any isn't a flaw of squad building.

Don Pacifico one of the issues I had with the we scored the most goals argument last season which got transferred into we don't need more in attack, was that we scored lots of goals in some games but failed to score in too many and we've seen that again. This is a problem the team has had for two seasons and we don't seem to have been and to respond to it. There have been too many 0 games in the last 2 years and that costs you titles.

RocktheCasbah In your world, you either win or you don't and that's fine, my uncle is the same.

Anyone else starting to think RtCs "uncle" is just a voice in his head? Its all the bad thoughts he has that he doesn't want to admit to himself? Like a little devil on his shoulder.

I'm just putting this out there because I think its more interesting than the discussion about sacking Arteta.

Qwiss you got me. My real name is Tyler Durden.

Claudius
70m on Merino and Calafiori - the latter being one of the more complicated deals these last few years - while getting in Sterling who got fuck all minutes certainly insinuates that he has either unrealistic demands from his forward targets or some other problem. We don't struggle to get defender or goalies over the line, even now we have Zubimendi and another goalie on the horizon but Jesus and Trossard in eleven windows is just shocking.

jones this is how talent markets work. Every company I work with in SA struggles to get good full stack devs. Consistent problem. It’s not for a lack of effort. Oh, they have analysts coming out the arse.

Claudius so let's say we have a fact - that it's harder to sign forward players than defenders.

Is our conclusion from this that it's impossible to say if we've done a good enough job of strengthening our forward line?

Don Pacifico Our attack was prolific last season. Despite this, we all knew there were still weaknesses, as did Arteta hence why we were looking at forwards in the summer. The fact we didn't sign any isn't a flaw of squad building.

Can there only be flaws with the squad building if we weren't looking? If we look for players every season, then don't manage to sign those we're looking at, and then don't sign adequate alternatives, I see that as a flaw with the squad building.

jones I don't have a problem with either of those two deals. Tomi is injury prone, we are going to lose Zinchenko & Tierney and possibly Kiwior this summer so getting Calafiori is fine, he also acts as backup for CBs. Likewise for Merino, we are going to lose Partey and Jorginho this window. Sometimes you need to bring in the replacements a window or two before and that for me is being proactive.

The main problem for me was we went for Sesko and Williams, neither happened and we knew early it would be very difficult. But worryingly seemed like we had not backup or alterative lined up. This summer, if key targets aren't signed by mid July we simply have to move on to the next ones. Chasing players all summer to be rejected is what we used to do under Wenger, can not happen again.

Claudius I understand your points, but they are obstacles to be addressed, not reasons for taking no action. You've also picked three fairly poor buys to illustrate your point, which is in no way representative of the wider market of actual moves, or even potential moves that we might have made. There will have been dozens of potential options open to us across a wide range of value, alongside plenty where we could have forced the issue if we tried.

If the market is constrained and your preferred options aren't available, that's a sign you need to adapt your approach, tactics, or principles to what is available, rather than turning your nose up at what's on offer and middling through.

We've been fortunate to be blessed with Saka, and now Nwaneri coming through, as there is currently very little positive evidence (Odegaard aside) that Arteta is capable of making worthy attacking additions to the team.

Don Pacifico because I still believe there are plans in place to fix our forward line. If I didn't think that, then I'd question our squad building.

Our attack was prolific last season. Despite this, we all knew there were still weaknesses, as did Arteta hence why we were looking at forwards in the summer. The fact we didn't sign any isn't a flaw of squad building.

I've still got plans to fit into those 32 inch waist jeans in my wardrobe. Until I actually take some action the plans are all a bit meaningless, and the fact I've had plenty opportunity in recent times suggests the issue lies with me rather than the jeans.

JazzG Agreed, but I think that's possibly part of Jones' point there. That we could identify the issues in the deeper positions and make attempts to rectify it, but not do it further up the pitch, is just baffling. I refuse to believe it's due to the lack of options or prices of those available.

Tam Maybe but I think we got Havertz done pretty quick when we wanted him a couple years back, likewise moved quickly on Trossard when we lost out on Mudryk. We have neglected the attacking positions last summer, clear we needed at minimum one if not two players and ended up with zero. I honestly think if we had signed a top class wide player that alone would have made a massive difference, could have rotated our front players and maybe they wouldn't have got injured.

JazzG Even ignoring that he was supposed to be a CM the fact we got Havertz done pretty quick is not the argument you seem to think it is lol

It's actually mental, Chelsea initially refused to sell him we had to go in with several bids. He was a failure there for three years, had just two years left on his deal, they had just finished in 12th yet we paid them more than they paid Leverkusen initially ffs.

JazzG again that would be an argument for me if it happened once or twice.

Also I don't get the feeling we go after attackers with the same urgency we do other positions. Raya we tried for years until we got him, Havertz (as CM) I mentioned already and Calafiori we had to deal with Bologna the player and Basel and still got him in.

I don't rate Arteta much but his ability to sell dreams to players is up there with the best, I'm sure if he really wanted to he could've persuaded Sesko to join last summer already.

Tam Agree with this. We dropped proverbial bombs on Declan Rice and Kai Havertz in terms of transfer fees and wages; two players that, while good, haven't proven to be worth what we paid for them, in my opinion.

The 75-odd million and 280k/week we're paying the latter would have landed us a top attacker. It probably still would now.

Why we can't seem to get it right is anyone's guess. My hot take is that Arteta has a blind spot with regards to attackers and attacking football.

Considering the other club interested in him was Real Madrid I am not sure I accept this idea that he was not in demand or would not have gone for good money. For Chelsea to sell us was going to require a premium, I think we overpaid by £10m-£15m but I think he has done fine for us. When he has played in his best position he has been good, our wide players imo have been more of a let down with the exception of Saka.

JazzG Considering the other club interested in him was Real Madrid I am not sure I accept this idea that he was not in demand or would not have gone for good money.

If this is the case, do you think Havertz didn't want to join Real Madrid so he came here instead, or do you think it means that Real Madrid weren't interested at that price? I know what I'm thinking.