Qwiss I think all Claudius is saying is whilst we're clearly not where we want to be right now, Arteta has done excellently to have us second despite the red cards; despite the injuries; despite the fact we can't catch a break on VAR and, yes; a sub optimal summer transfer window.

And you don't really ever see that fact acknowledged in a lot of the posting here. I can't really remember a season like this one, where something seems to go against us in every game and for all that, we are looking down on all but one Premier League team.

I don't think Arteta should be, or is, above criticism - but that criticism really should take account of the circumstances this season has played out in.

RocktheCasbah see that’s the thing, he’s had many faults either manifest or evidence themselves this season, yet he’s still being described as doing excellently.

Yes we’re second. And granted there have been so many things done against us this year. However we’re effectively 9 points off the pace, and in any other year we’d be third. The positive picture you’re painting is greatly helped by the fact Man City have had an unprecedented collapse.

Too much is made of comparing us to others and previous seasons. Look at where we are and how we are performing. Poor league performances and disastrous cup games.

Tam I don't really know how to respond to this. You're probably right, at least to a certain degree, but I just can't relate to this level of unhappiness with the manager or team. And I say that as someone who's put his hand in his pocket to go and watch them quite a lot this season. The only game I've been really disappointed by was the Newcastle cup game & even that we should have won.

Yeah, we fucked the summer - but until I know the manager bears 100% responsibility for that, I'm not prepared to hang him for it. If you know differently, please do enlighten me.

And as for our position being made rosey by City's collapse, would it not also be fair to say that were Liverpool not on pace for a 90 point season, something nobody saw coming and (for the record not something I think they'll do) there would be a lot less angst on here?

Don Pacifico Frankly, the vitriol I heard from some fans last night was not only pathetic but completely disproportionate to the situation.

even here:
being angry at Odegard for not busting a gut. The same Odegaard that's been pressing and leading the press the whole match.
being angry at Kai for the temerity of having arms.

That's why I avoid this place whenever we have a bad result. Even twitter is solace.

Man - Saturday still burns. Liverpool winning in stoppage time and us dropping a two goal lead. Could have so easily been a 2 point gap this morning. Fuck. This absolutely fucking sucks.

RocktheCasbah The only game I've been really disappointed by was the Newcastle cup game & even that we should have won

You weren't disappointed in the FA cup game? I see all this bad luck and poor refs excuses but we had the better of it in that match winning a penalty for a clear dive.

Qwiss Maybe initially. Definitely initially, in fact. I thought I saw Arsenal dissolve in front of my eyes - and then I realised that this is football and you can have games like this, especially in that terrible all white kit.

The bottom line for me is United scored from the one chance they had and defended for their lives, successfully. We didn't play well and, yes, things went our way for about 5 minutes in the second half - but we've all watched enough football to know when your destiny isn't really in your own hands. Or feet.

RocktheCasbah "all these problems" are normal and mostly excuse making. Like I said where were all these problems against United? Our problems against Villa were of our own making. What terrible injustice was there against Newcastle?

Some decisions go your way, some go against you. We've had a decent few weeks of big ref decisions and yet we've slipped back in the league again and effectively gone out of 2 cups.

Qwiss Okay, so I'm making excuses. So what?

I'd rather be where I am than using up mental energy, stressing about things which are completely beyond my control.

I never said anything about "terrible injustices", but I am glad you mentioned Newcastle, because when I said "things aren't going our way", that's like a classic example. Martinelli is played through, one on one, it's a nice bit of football to get him in. He smashes the post and the ball flies away. Five minutes later, Newcastle get a bit of a lucky break and the ball lands at Isak's feet. He also hits the woodwork, but the ball bounces down and in.

Two moments in a match that could have gone either way, we didn't get the rub either time. That's football, that's life. As dispirited as I felt walking away from the Emirates that night, I still recognise that we could easily have won that game and Newcastle wouldn't have had any complaints.

So what's the point in being angry about it?

I don't think it's normal to have had at least one (and most of the time, 2/3) of Saka, Odegaard and Ben White unavailable basically since the start of the season. It certainly hasn't been our normal anyway.

RocktheCasbah I'd rather be where I am than using up mental energy, stressing about things which are completely beyond my control.

Well you are stressing about our reactions so its all even in the grand scheme of things.

Qwiss I'm absolutely not stressing mate, you're entitled to your opinion and obviously I'm aware it's one shared by more than few people. I think it's possible to acknowledge that there is at least a grain of truth in that opinion, but also say that with a slightly better rub of the green we would be a lot closer to Liverpool than we currently are.

RocktheCasbah I think it goes both ways. Maybe you don't see enough comments saying that part of why we're so far behind Liverpool are due to injuries, but you probably didn't see many comments last season saying that part of why we ended up so far ahead of Liverpool were due to their injuries either.

QuincyAbeyie Yeah, that's fair. Not going to argue it.

RocktheCasbah I'm absolutely not stressing mate

Neither are the rest of us, we are just having a chat.

I just don't buy the rub of the green stuff. You make your own luck. Yeah we've had bad ref decisions against us but like I say the last couple of weeks we've had some favourable ones too. We beat Spurs with that corner, we got an unfair penalty against United, etc

Gurgen
How were we unlucky in 2016? We didn’t have a world class striker and that cost us. Had we signed one in Jan 2016 we would have won the title. That not bad luck, that’s incompetence. Sound familiar?