2024 US Election: Page 95 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

2024 US Election

Gurgen

jones I’m a Bibi supporter because I think there are a lot of antisemites? Trust me, I like the state of Israel much less than any of you. If it disappears tomorrow I won’t shed a tear. It’s an open threat to the existence of Armenia and Armenians in Jersualem. However, I have an extremely deep distrust of westerners who feel very deeply for the cause of either side in the Palestinian conflict.

JazzG

Gurgen However, I have an extremely deep distrust of westerners who feel very deeply for the cause of either side in the Palestinian conflict.

Don't know why I randomly thought of this post today. Some of the responses to the ceasefire have been very telling but not entirely surprising....

jones

JazzG you'd like to say you'd kill your own child? Mate what the fuck.

flobaba

jones rule of law. If that's what the law demands, what can daddy Jazz be expected to do?

Kidding JaZzy, kidding.

Meatwad

jones
as long as it's for the cause.

JazzG

jones I wouldn't kill my own child, what kind of nonsense is that. But if my son assassinated someone in cold blood because he didn't like his opinions I wouldn't be going out of my way to protect him either. In fact I'd feel deep shame and probably blame myself if my kid turned out like that.

QuincyAbeyie I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.

flobaba It isn't about the law. Killing someone in cold blood can only be justified in extreme situations, this is noway near one of them. I would have no problem protecting my son in that scenario.

Meatwad The cause being try not to raise your son to kill people who have different views and then try to protect him.

QuincyAbeyie

JazzG nazis and fascists have kids as well..?

Burnwinter

JazzG Then some of those people go around calling everyone who doesn't agree with them a Nazis or Fascist.

As I said to Gurgen, it's about the organisation of power not diverse and balanced views. On one side of this you've got the likes of President Trump, Stephen Miller, TPUSA and Charlie Kirk's dead body. Head of state, hateful minister of biopolitics, and a wealthy media network that thrives on exclusionary speech.

Sure Kirk's got a bullet in him, a bullet that seems to have been put there by a confused 22-year-old Mormon who didn't fit in at college.

But Trump and Vance, Miller et al. are having to fantasise powerful and violent enemies in real-time: "organised terror networks", "Stalinists and antisemites", "evil people who celebrated at the wrong moment" (reminds me of Sky going on about Arsenal).

These guys who've got all the three-letter agencies at their disposal, mobilised all over the world, are out there complaining about a skewed online conversation. If there were an actual war on against them they'd be in bunkers.

If you're on the left, it's fair to look at the enclosures of US politics and say "not my circus, not my monkeys".

QuincyAbeyie

JazzG I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.

And I'm not sure what your point is either. He was a father and husband, okay? Would he be more or less deserving to die if he didn't? Would he be more or less of a fascist?

To be honest I think it's very telling when people describe Kirk as being killed for "disagreeing with people" and leaving it at that without further elaboration.

Meatwad

JazzG
if i raised my son that way then it's my responsibility to not rat him out at the very least. i think it would be my duty to protect him from those consequences since it's partly my fault.

jones

JazzG fact I'd feel deep shame and probably blame myself

If you blaming yourself means snitching on someone that close to you getting them the death penalty in the process I don't want to know what you'll do when you blame someone else.

Coombs

QuincyAbeyie the crux of it seems to be this: Kirk was extremely provocative, he got done by it, but it was wrong to do so.

I broadly agree with this take: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/9/12/charlie-kirk-and-the-danger-of-selective-empathy

Killing Charlie Kirk only exacerbates the division, hatred, and, yes, violence, that he cynically stoked for fame and profit. Rhetorically speaking, killing him is an argument in his favor. So, too, is failing to empathize* with him and his family.

*like Kirk, I find this term to be a bit ambiguous, and maybe even problematic.

JazzG

QuincyAbeyie No I am just pointing out that it is tragic his kids will grow up without their father, over what? Because he didn't like his views. He is a fascist now? I hate to tell you this but just because people say he is a fascist doesn't make him one.

Also what further elaboration do you want about his views?

jones Interesting choice of word snitching, what if your son had raped a woman would handing him over be snitching then? Or is it only snitching if he kills someone whose opinion you don't like?

I also didn't say the blame would be on the parents, if someone’s child turned out like this it is only natural that a parent would look at themselves. Clearly this boy got radicalised when he got older so the parents can't be held responsible but I'd think it is tearing them up about how their son did this.

Meatwad

Burnwinter

Parents aren't to blame. Social values are socially determined. If you try to hold parents accountable for their kids they'll just compete on moral vanity.

Guys like both Kirk and Robinson need to be collected, supported and informally disciplined in a constituted, self-determining and self-governing community with actual political power and solidarity. That's not your mum and dad.

flobaba

Burnwinter Amen.

Coombs

JazzG I don't think fascism is as exotic as you're making it out to be. There are fascists everywhere. Much more common than the "radical left", who I'm not sure even exist anymore.

Also, you keep saying Kirk was killed because the kid didn't like his views. This is not necessarily the case. Robinson is a troll in real life, just the sort of troll that Kirk and his ilk feasted on for so long. His bullet casing messages and little trail of clues that hint to either groyperdom and/or antifascism = massive troll. He's fucking with everyone.

Burnwinter

JazzG He is a fascist now? I hate to tell you this but just because people say he is a fascist doesn't make him one.

👇 Kirk was whatever term you use for the tweet below. He tweeted that a fortnight ago as you see.

Kirk made dozens of similarly calculated hateful, divisive and antisocial statements. He was getting rich from it.

What do you actually have to say about it? "Islam is the sword the left is using to slit the throat of America" is all fine and good?

QuincyAbeyie

JazzG Also what further elaboration do you want about his views?

When you say "he was killed because people disagreed with him" you make it seem like you don't think it's relevant what those opinions were.

But on the other hand, you seem to think it's relevant to point out that this man wasn't a fascist, even though killing someone because they're a fascist would also be killing someone "because they disagreed with him".

A fascist or a nazi can be reduced to "someone with opinions you disagree with". Or it could be a person who prefers hamburger to sushi and I feel different. I don't think they're the same, but carry on.

Qwiss

JazzG He is a fascist now?

No he's dead now.

Coombs

Coombs just saw the alleged text messages....

Hard not to believe this is a stitch-up. Absurd levels of convenient self-incrimination that make absolutely no sense. Kirk seeming more like a sacrifice than a martyr. Cui bono?

Consider me deeply skeptical.

Gazza M

Burnwinter

“The American way of life is very simple. I want to be able to get married, buy a home, have kids, allow them to ride their bike till the sun goes down, send them to a good school, have a low crime neighborhood, not to have my kid be taught the lesbian, gay, transgender garbage in their school. While also, not having them have to hear the Muslim call to prayer five times a day. That's important

this small statement summarises the way both the populist and christian right has sucked people in. start with sunshine and rainbows and 'reasonableness', then cynically smear certain groups as the ones standing in the way of the return to the land of milk and honey. Steve bannon does this too. draw disillusioned people in with bernie-style economic rhetoric, then deliver the real agenda which is nationalist authoritarian ideology.

Burnwinter

Gazza M You think you've heard it all, but "Christ-an-dum ... the outgrowth of the Scriptures gave us western civilisation" still dropped my jaw.

The rest of it is straight-up "travaille, famille, patrie" but as you say, there's no connective sinews at all between a happy, daily, normal, family life and all this violent, exclusionary rhetoric.

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