Women's World Cup: Page 14 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Women's World Cup

Daz

So the fact that Hermoso herself has said that it was not consensual and made her uncomfortable doesn't matter to you?

Ricky1985

Would it matter to you if another player says that his non-consensual hugging made her uncomfortable?

I just don't think it's a big deal in the context we're talking about. And I don't think she saw it as a big deal either until social media blew up about it and battle lines had to be drawn.

Does it really upset you (not you personally, Daz) that in a moment of euphoria, gratitude and celebration when all of them were hugging and kissing as tends to be the way in moments like this, that this guy planted a friendly kiss on the lips of (I assume?) the star player? It's not like he tried to snog her something!

Mirth

Also the power dynamic between the two parties matters. If it was, say, the team physio then it’s equally wrong but can be handled by the aggrieved party. In this instance, after being called out on it, Rubiales is bringing the entire weight of the RFEF with him.

KingslandBarge

The fact that he called the outrage an example of 'false feminism', has showed no self-awareness or sensitivity to the recipient after the fact, and had his minions doctor photos is all just a bad look and made it all worse. Nevermind smacking kisses all over her face . Fair enough if thats a cultural norm for him, but sounds like it wasn't for her. He should have accepted that, apologised, and moved on. He can then carry on expressing himself that way with those that have no problem with it.

Gazza M

they're willing to die on this hill because they know if they lose this 'fight' it will probably result in alot of further formal review/scrutiny. 'kill it in its cot' mentality

Ricky1985

QuincyAbeyie

I don't think 'women' have stated an official position. Some individual women would have a problem with this specific scenario and others wouldn't.

I think if you're a polite, respectful person, man or woman, then you judge each individual situation that you're in and then act accordingly. Perhaps the Spanish FA guy overstepped the mark, I don't know - it seems inappropriate to me, but there was also a ton of emotion and energy in all the Spanish players, coaches and officials in that moment. And I don't know him, I don't know her, I don't know what kind of relationship he has with her, whether they are friends, or anything at all really.

Out of curiosity, do you think the lady was harmed in any way by what happened? That's a genuine question, btw. Not by what has followed, but by being kissed on the lips without consenting in that specific moment? Is that relevant to you? If she had kissed him without consenting in that same moment would that have been a problem? Or if another player or one of the two women presenting medals had kissed her in the same scenario would that also be unacceptable? Curious to know what you think.

QuincyAbeyie

Ricky1985 I don't think 'women' have stated an official position. Some individual women would have a problem with this specific scenario and others wouldn't.

I wasn't talking about all the women in the world, but rather the woman involved and her teammates who all support her. However, if I was talking about the world population, I'm pretty sure the consensus is pro consent.

Ricky1985 And I don't know him, I don't know her, I don't know what kind of relationship he has with her, whether they are friends, or anything at all really.

None of us do. It's up to her to decide is they have the kind of relationship where he could do that, and they clearly don't.

Ricky1985 Out of curiosity, do you think the lady was harmed in any way by what happened?

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. She didn't consent and she didn't like it.

Ricky1985 Or if another player or one of the two women presenting medals had kissed her in the same scenario would that also be unacceptable? Curious to know what you think.

Nobody should kiss anyone without knowing that they won't mind, but I hope you're not trying to imply that it's irrelevant that Rubiales is male and the president of the FA. You know, since both your examples are missing those parts.

Ricky1985 I just don't think it's a big deal in the context we're talking about. And I don't think she saw it as a big deal either until social media blew up about it and battle lines had to be drawn.

Even this isn't really relevant. For years, women have dealt with things they shouldn't have to because that's just how it is, and they've rarely made a big deal out of it. It's normal that it takes more attention around something to make someone realize that they're not being overly sensitive and it's okay to react. It's not that many years ago since using gay as a slur was perfectly normal. That they didn't make a big deal out of it doesn't mean they liked it any more then than they do now. It's just much easier when things "blow up" because they know they're not alone.

Burnwinter

There's no one I know in life, man or woman, who wouldn't at least reserve the right to object strenuously to that kiss. I certainly reserve that right.

But okay, let's put the kiss in context and see if it feels any better:

questions in the past couple of years over whether RFEF even believes Liga F is a professional league
a prolonged dispute between half of the best women players in Spain, the national coach Jorge Vilda, and the RFEF of which Rubiales is President
15 contenders for the national team went on strike alleging Vilda implemented an extreme, creepy surveillance culture and that they received no support from RFEF when querying it
Hermoso publicly backed the protests against Vilda
Rubiales has publicly stated and re-stated his ambition to extend Vilda's contract and increase his remuneration
Rubiales has been accused of using RFEF funds to pay for bunga bunga parties

🤔 🤔

From Hermoso's statement above:

"Not only that, but in different ways and through different people, the RFEF has pressured my surroundings (family, friends, teammates etc) to give a testimony that had little or nothing to do with my feelings."

What a cool administrator for Spanish football, pulling a bunch of side channel coercion to try to force its footballers to exonerate its creepy, embezzling boss publicly. Seems fine.

You've gotta imagine if this were the FA and Bukayo Saka, I mean whose side are you on? Fuck these guys.

Clrnc

Ricky1985 Isn't a kiss on the lips holds a significant difference in meaning from a kiss on the forehead?

Ricky1985

Clrnc

What about kissing on the cheek, the neck, hugging, caressing, fireman's carrying? No one is demanding he resigns for that apparently, but a kiss on the lips is a terrible, unforgivable act.

goon

Ricky1985

The problem is unless people ‘overreact’ nothing really changes. Women will likely just have to accept that they’ll need to take kisses from creeps who’s use the occasion to do it.

Good example is my colleague who’s black. Back in the day he used to have to put up and laugh along with bosses and colleague who’d tell him to smile and think it’s hilarious. He’d hate it, but if he said anything it was just a laugh/joke and he’d then be punished for bringing it up and making a fuss. People who did make a big deal out of “jokes and banter” of this nature are the reason why he doesn’t need to put up with this stuff and brush it off.

goon

Not to marginalise the kiss itself, to Ricky’s point it could have been dealt with in a way that allowed him to escape with his reputation if you saw genuine remorse and understanding. But it’s the reaction from him and his buddies that has been really crazy.

Ricky1985

goon
It seems that tweet is in inaccurate, and she did in fact lift him up as he said she did. And he also apparently said "can I give you a peck?" (If she didn't answer, which is what she says, then obviously it's still very much non-consensual).

Burnwinter

goon The problem is unless people ‘overreact’ nothing really changes

The theorist Sara Ahmed is good on this. If you bring something like this up in the context of hostile authority, you are inevitably labelled a "feminist killjoy" or a "difficult woman" or the equivalent. That's a standard bit of reactionary cope: it's always on the way for those who speak up.

As a result that form of objection is usually evacuated of any reliable meaning.

With his refusal to jump Rubiales seems to have decided his best career play is to raise the stakes. That way he can cast himself as a rebel and (as Gaz pointed out) make a living in the red pill economy. Reports saying FIFA just suspended him …

Never mind Rubiales though, the RFEF has really dropped itself in the shite by following his lead. Incredibly dumb to threaten Hermoso with a defamation lawsuit while Rubiales lies about her giving consent and so forth. They will be fully crumbling and breaking ranks within the day I'd say.

Clrnc

Ricky1985 What about kissing on the cheek, the neck, hugging, caressing, fireman's carrying? No one is demanding he resigns for that apparently, but a kiss on the lips is a terrible, unforgivable act.

Why do you think majority of the viewers and media think that act of kissing on the lips is not fine but didn't make much noise about everything else? The important thing is that Jenni was offended and didn't think that act was okay in the first place.

The rest of the lies the president said made it worse

Daz

One word Ricky. Consent. That's it really

Ricky1985

Daz

So, consent is the only relevant factor in any context and at any time? Your position is: If there's no explicit consent it's always wrong to kiss another person on the lips?

Is that dependent on the gender of the person kissing and being kissed? Would you call for Arteta to resign if he kisses Saka without asking when we win the League at the end of the season? Would you be calling for the Spanish girl to be thrown out of the national team if she had instead kissed him? Or if one of her team mates kissed her and she complained about it on social media and it blew up?

Burnwinter

Ricky1985 Would you call for Arteta to resign if he kisses Saka without asking when we win the League at the end of the season?

Go on then, pull on this thread.

Let's say we've won the league and Arteta has planted one on Saka's lips with the whole Emirates cheering.

If Saka comes out and says "I didn't like that" in an interview five minutes later, and then Arteta comes out and says "Bukayo kissed me actually, it was mutual", and then Saka releases a statement a day later saying "Arsenal pressured me via my mum and dad, and also Declan Rice to change my story, but I won't because Mikel Arteta is lying and I did not consent to being kissed", then … yes, of course I'd take Saka's side and if Saka wanted Arteta's resignation, I'd support him?

That situation would feel deeply weird and regrettable, and of course the key thing is it wouldn't happen, but it wouldn't be hard to see who was in the right, nor that Arsenal can't have an awkward creep for a manager.

But of course, Rubiales isn't Arteta, he's not even Vilda. He's just a bald, allegedly corrupt football apparatchik widely loathed by Spain's senior women players let alone this incident. So it's far from regrettable in his case, he's just a fuckwit who needs to be got rid.

Daz

Ricky1985 Yes I'm saying consent is imperative. And yes I would expect Arteta to be sanctioned if he did that.
Consent is necessary regardless of gender, but as others have said, the power differentials in the situation are also relevant.

Qwiss

Ricky1985 Would you call for Arteta to resign if he kisses Saka without asking when we win the League at the end of the season?

For starters Arteta is the manager and has a much closer relationship to the players. Imagine it was Stan or Josh doing it. And thats before we even get into the gender dynamics of the whole thing. And if Saka did come out and say that about Arteta I'd at the very least expect an instant apology from Arteta. And ultimately if the whole squad came out and said what Arteta had done was unacceptable and they wont play for him again then there is only one choice to be made.

RowJimmy

Burnwinter he's just a fuckwit who needs to be got rid.

This is the correct answer.

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