Kai Havertz: Page 95 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Kai Havertz

Sicario2

JazzG how was Thierry Henry in any cup final he played for us?

JazzG

Sicario2 He tore Southampton apart in 2003, tore Liverpool apart in 2001. Didn't score in either but put in superb performance otherwise in those two just off the top of my head.

Don Pacifico

If you look at Havertz last season he had 15 goals and 5 assists in 36 games.

This season, Gyokeres has 17 goals and 2 assists in 44 games.

By those stats alone, I don't think Gyokeres has done enough to dislodge Havertz as our first choice. But I also think Havertz is a more reliable player in connecting our attack. Using a simplistic stat, Gyokeres has a 60% pass completion rate this season whilst Havertz was at 80% last season (he's at 63% this season but as we've discussed, doesn't yet look to be fully up to speed).

I'm not saying Havertz can't be improved upon, I'm just not convinced we've found that guy.

JazzG

Don Pacifico If you look at Havertz last season he had 15 goals and 5 assists in 36 games.

Compare their stats as strikers, not hard to see who the better player is. There is an argument that for now we stick with Gyokeres as Havertz has spent a long time out injured and clearly not back to his best yet.

Mirth

JazzG and was MOTM in the Euro 2000 final

JazzG

Mirth Forgot about that, gave legendary defenders in Nesta, Canavaro and Maldini absolute hell that game as well.

Now Henry had some bad performances and probably didn't score as many goals as he should have in finals which will always be a mark on his record but he had some great performances.

MistaT

If neither Gyokeres or Havertz are clearly the answer, you do need to assess their impact on the players around them too.

Do we think Saka will regain StarBoy status? and if so, who's a better CF for him?

Do we think Eze or Dowman may dislodge Odegaard? if so, who's a better CF for them?

JazzG

MistaT I think AM, LW and CF are all positions in this side which need addressing.

Klaus

Think all of this is very silly. Gyökeres is going to end up with 24-25 goals and a Premier League trophy, and it'll be one of the best debut seasons ever for an Arsenal striker. He'll be even better next season.

Havertz by contrast is at his best with another striker on the pitch but can play up top for a while if needed. I think the dynamic is very good and modern, it's exactly the profiles you want for your strikers, the top sides in Europe all tend to end up like this: one classic number 9 and one guy who's in-betweeny.

Havertz's injury record is a concern though, and I suspect Berta and Arteta might consider swapping him this summer, but only if they can get a special player in. I doubt that type of player is gonna be available in the summer though. Keep Kai and Viktor and go in hard for a winger or a midfielder instead, and we're gonna be this far ahead of the rest of the pack again in 26/27.

Don Pacifico

Klaus Gyökeres is going to end up with 24-25 goals and a Premier League trophy, and it'll be one of the best debut seasons ever for an Arsenal striker. He'll be even better next season.

The stats don't back any of this up.

His goals per game is 0.39 (which is slightly worse than Lacazette at 0.44) indicating he's on track for 21 goals this season if we reach the CL final and he plays every game. Can't forget either that Auba had a 0.6 goals per game ratio and won the Golden Boot in his first full season so think it's some stretch to suggest this is the best debut season from an Arsenal striker.

I hope you're right that he's better next season but at his age it seems unrealistic to expect a significant uptick. I agree with you that Havertz isn't an ideal CF either but as per my previous post, he's shown more in the season he was our default option (and the stats again bear that out).

RowJimmy

Havertz is much better at football (not particularly close), but his minutes will need to be managed for the rest of the season so Gyökeres will play lots. The fact that he's allowed us to survive without our best striker for most of the season has made him invaluable.

Ray

Gyokeres’s numbers are Lacazette level in the PL and he doesn’t particularly link up well.

At least with someone like Igor Thiago we’d have numbers.

The only reason we’re in a shout for the PL is our defence and set pieces, this is genuinely the worst attack we’ve had in decades

Doc

Just sign another striker in the summer who is an actual footballer so we don't have to decide between these poverty options, same with left wing. Again...

Meatwad

or right wing and just move saka left. it's not like inverting him is vital to anything.

Tam

Don Pacifico His goals per game is 0.39 (which is slightly worse than Lacazette at 0.44) indicating he's on track for 21 goals this season if we reach the CL final and he plays every game. Can't forget either that Auba had a 0.6 goals per game ratio and won the Golden Boot in his first full season so think it's some stretch to suggest this is the best debut season from an Arsenal striker.

The history books, and most of us, will remember Gyokeres' 20 goal season and Premier League trophy a lot more fondly than Aubameyang's golden boot and fifth placed league finish.

awooga83

Tam maybe so but you can't really say that's Aubameyang's fault the team was poorer generally. He performed to a high quality level so on the point about performing as a forward Dom's point stands for me.

Don Pacifico

Tam yeah, I'm with awooga, that's a really reductive point that the perception of a player should be determined by the team's output. Why have player threads if that's the case?

Throughout the years, there have many players from opposition teams that won league titles that we have derided as not being that good. I don't think it's a controversial point to suggest that not everyone in a winning team has to be amongst the best in their position.

Ray

Tam with Gyokeres if you’re counting all comps then Auba had 31 goals that first full season, 22 in the league alone. Gyokeres has 11 in the league, 17 in all comps. The numbers are miles apart to even compare. And it’a not like Gyokeres is the reason we are top of the table, it’s the whole team, so praising him individually as someone who earned us a PL title is disingenuous.

And the whole reason we went for Gyokeres is he was meant to deliver now, rather than potential next season. Looks like that didn’t work out.

QuincyAbeyie

Tam sure, but is that a good way to assess player performances? By that logic every player we've never had the best player in the league in any position for the last 20 years because there's always been a different player in that position who finished 1st. I'm sure our scouts (if we have any left) don't work that way.

Qwiss

Tam hopefully. Right now the last trophy I remember us winning was won because Aubameyang dragged us to it.

As for the Gyokeres vs Havertz debate right now it should be Gyok first choice, Havertz back up. And I don't want any more Havertz in midfield, get him on for the last half hour if we need more fire power or on to rest Gyok if we are in control.

In the summer we should try to get another striker we think could potentially be better than Gyokeres. Can't see many options that wouldn't be quite risky but risks need to be taken at this stage of Artetas project.

awooga83

Don Pacifico I mean on this the one that instantly comes to mind is David May won the champions League😂

Tam

But Klaus' point wasn't that it was the best debut season's by an Arsenal striker. He said it would be_one of the best_, a point you've misrepresented. Of course the outcome of a season will determine how well an individual debut season is viewed. He might not have scored the goals of Aubameyang, but he's contributing to a first title in 20 years. That will be infinitely more memorable than the 10 goals in the 13 games of Aubameyang's first half season with us, or his golden boot.

You can't hold a poor team against Aubameyang but he'll be a footnote in Arsenal's history compared to the team that wins a title.

Don Pacifico I don't think it's a controversial point to suggest that not everyone in a winning team has to be amongst the best in their position.

I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

Don Pacifico

Tam But Klaus' point wasn't that it was the best debut season's by an Arsenal striker. He said it would be_one of the best_, a point you've misrepresented.

If this is all about the notion of remembering a player, then yes, you're right that all members of a winning team are more likely to be remembered vs non-winners. But that wasn't the starting point of this conversation.

Klaus the idea that we have bad key players who somehow have stumbled onto a 9 point lead in the most competivite league in the world is not an opinion worth taking seriously.

That's predicated on Gyokeres being a key player, which given his patchy contribution is something I can't get on board with. He's absolutely played a role in where we are this season, just not to the level or consistency I'd expect from a player leading the line for Arsenal.

Tam

Ray I didn't do that, and I don't think he's had a particularly great season numbers-wise. But if he wins a league title in his first season, as a debut season it will be fondly remembered more than any debut season of any striker during our shit years.

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