Saka: Page 24 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Saka

Big Willie

Sicario2 None of those players are World class (yet).

None of them have won anything or dominated CL.

We currently have zero WC players imo but in 6-12 months this picture could (hopefully) change.

Then we have 4 WC players in

Zinchenko (4 PLs, 1 FA Cup and 4 League Cups),
Jesus (4 PLs, 1 FA Cup and 3 League Cups),
Jorginho (CL, EL, Copa Italia, Euro 2020), and
Havertz (CL, Super Cup, World Club Cup).

Claudius

Big Willie don’t fall for trophy bait. Might as well go argue with Rio

Sicario2

Big Willie

Don’t be silly lad. Even in your heart of hearts you know they are not WC.

Zinny and Jesus were bit part players for City. Jesus has practically done fuck all since 2022.

Jorginho has been a bit part player for the best part of 18 months and I’m not even going to bother chatting about Kai.

Claudius

Mirth Kane is a properly rounded striker. The guy has often played as a ten for spurs. He’s very clever as a creative. The last complete striker the premier league has seen probably.

Tam

Claudius and probably will see for a quite a time, much as I hate to say it.

Claudius

This has to be a fait accompli, no?

RowJimmy

Sicario2
You completely - completely - missed his point.

Sicario2

RowJimmy
I get it. Just because you win trophies doesn’t make your world class.

But it’s a stupid argument. Kane is an exception because for most of his career he’s been playing for one of the biggest losers in the history of the sport.

To be the best ie world class you have to be a big contributing factor in regards to silverware.

In any other sport , excellence is determined by accomplishments in terms of trophies/medals. Anything else is burying your head under the sand and making excuses.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario2 In any other sport , excellence is determined by accomplishments in terms of trophies/medals.

Didn't you think Maradona was bigger than Messi? Have you compared their trophy cabinets?

Sicario2

QuincyAbeyie

I did until Messi won the WC and was a massive contributing factor in Argentina winning their t third World Cup.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario2 did you compare their trophy cabinets before the WC and concluded that Maradona's was bigger..?

Claudius

@Sicario2, in an individual sport where everything is in your control so you can be better than your opponent - eg tennis, gymnastics, golf, etc., then your trophy rule applies. To a lesser extent in a highly strong link sport like NBA basketball where one player out of the 12 can provide 1/4 of the total scoring on a team and other outsized contributions.

In top tier football, there are too many variables for one player to be all important. What you want is for individual players who can dominate their relevant zones of the field in every game, but they still really depend on multiple other players who do the same elsewhere. Thus, trophies are a really bad way to evaluate individual footballers

RocktheCasbah

Claudius also, I do think "is he/ is he not world class?" is a really facile argument.

Bottom line, we wouldn't swap Saka for anyone - anyone - in the Premier League. I doubt there's anyone out there in the world of football we would swap him for. If we were to sell him, all of the clubs we consider to be rivals, either domestically or in Europe, would be in for him. If we were to put him up for sale now (and why would we?), we would be talking, I think, £100m+ just to get Arsenal to the table.

It's funny to think that maybe 2 or 3 years ago, I used to worry what would happen if Arsenal Football Club didn't raise its level - Saka seemed nailed on to join a Liverpool or a City at some point. I don't see any chance of that now.

Sicario2

If you can’t use trophies then it becomes far too subjective. Your world class will always be different to another’s.

You need silverware to be able to draw lines in the sand.

How do you guys think Ballon D’or is measured, rightly or wrongly?

Qwiss

So John O'Shea is one of the most world class players ever.

Sicario2

Qwiss

Was he instrumental in them winning trophies?

Look, let’s cut to the chase. This is my formula for being WC (feel free to disagree):

Trophies won+ playing a HUGE contributing factor in winning said trophies + outstanding performance over a sustained period in elite comps domestically, on a European level and internationally = World Class

Claudius

Qwiss Phil Neville, mate. H definition of world class

RocktheCasbah

Sicario2 What's the weighting in these categories?

Clrnc

Sicario2 Dijimi Traore is world class LB. He played a HUGE contributing factor in Liverpool run to the UCL win, plus he also played a big part in their FA Cup and Carling Cup wins over a sustained period of time.

QuincyAbeyie

RocktheCasbah I'd like to see him put weightings into the formula and show me what they are for each trophy to put Maradona before Messi before the last WC. I suspect it might be, dare I say it... subjective!

Qwiss

Clrnc Divok Origi, certified World Class as awarded by the Sicario system.

RocktheCasbah

QuincyAbeyie

hahahaha, quite.

to be honest, I know it's not the argument here, but it's perilous to compare players from different eras.

That Maradona documentary really brought home to me the brutality of the era he played in and if people who know think he is the greatest evs, I'm okay with that. I don't know because all I know of him is the 3 World Cups and the documentary. I have seen more of Messi, clearly, and the guy is a genius - but I do wonder how he would have coped with what El Diego had to.

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