The next 5: Page 6 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

The next 5

RocktheCasbah

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I expect us to lose - particularly the home game against Newcastle. I just think, given that we're already talking about a stretched squad and we have no idea how the World Cup is going to impact us, it wouldn't surprise me if negotiating both of those games proved tricky.

Clrnc

Actually the only long term injury we have is Elneny which is someone who shouldn't be here anyway. The other is ESR who will come back soon so technically we don't have a stretched squad as of now.

It's just that the backups are not of the same level and we especially need reinforcements in CM and also probably attack/wing. Nketiah and Sambi is not the same level as their counterparts, there's quite a drop off. Marquinhos probably need a season out on loan and Nelson is not at the required level at all. All these we probably already knew before the season began anyway

Claudius

Standings going into World Cup?

Arsenal
City
Newcastle
Spurs

Spurs, Chelsea hard to pull apart. I’ve taken Chelsea lower because they have City, Arsenal and Newcastle before World Cup. City really only have Chelsea, so first will be decided by how we each do against them. Thoughts?

Burnwinter

Looks like damage control and trying to keep our standing as we move into the World Cup now. I'd take a win over Forest and at least a draw with Chelsea, that'd leave us no worse than second to City on goal difference, doesn't sound so bad at this point.

I'm sure the upcoming break will feed the players' thinking a bit, it's unavoidable. The World Cup is going to be a big reset button for the whole season, how we handle that collectively will be a big test for Arteta, who looked a bit lost today.

Claudius

I don’t think Arteta is all that lost. I think the main issue we have is he doesn’t have alternatives he can trust off the bench.

awooga83

With the 3 games coming up and the way we have been playing I think we will likely get 4-7 points in this period and City will probably overhaul us before the world cup break. Something that was probably going to happen but I hoped we could make it to that to not drop points but we seem to have run out of steam at the moment.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
I don’t think Arteta is all that lost. I think the main issue we have is he doesn’t have alternatives he can trust off the bench.

Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
I don’t think Arteta is all that lost. I think the main issue we have is he doesn’t have alternatives he can trust off the bench.

Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

We are still in the rebuild. We are probbaly 2-3 players away from a done team. And I don’t think it would’ve been easy to have all of those players signed already. We did a lot of work last summer. So I’m not going to beat him up. He’s done the right thing and has a strong first 11. I’ve said consistently over the years that we need to build a strong first 11 first if we want to compete for things (I know Klaus and I had several debates around this). If you can’t achieve peak performance, you won’t beat teams. We’ve proven we can hit peak performance. What we need now is 2 more players who can help the other 6 mids and forwards stay fresh.

Coombs

I think it's less about staying fresh and more about having a better finisher than Xhaka in the team.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
I don’t think Arteta is all that lost. I think the main issue we have is he doesn’t have alternatives he can trust off the bench.

Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

I honestly can't believe we're unironically back to "Arteta needs players he can trust".

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

We are still in the rebuild. We are probbaly 2-3 players away from a done team. And I don’t think it would’ve been easy to have all of those players signed already. We did a lot of work last summer. So I’m not going to beat him up. He’s done the right thing and has a strong first 11. I’ve said consistently over the years that we need to build a strong first 11 first if we want to compete for things (I know Klaus and I had several debates around this). If you can’t achieve peak performance, you won’t beat teams. We’ve proven we can hit peak performance. What we need now is 2 more players who can help the other 6 mids and forwards stay fresh.

You're never not "2 players away" though are you? The teams his, all of them. We'll always need a player or two but this team is here and now. Its time to take them seriously and if Arteta doesn't trust his subs then he needs to move them on.

Burnwinter

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

I honestly can't believe we're unironically back to "Arteta needs players he can trust".

I mean it's now subtended by "to get from third or fourth to the title" rather than "to get from eighth to fourth at least".

Claudius

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Well it's a bench of players he signed bar Holding who he seems more willing to throw on than the others.

I honestly can't believe we're unironically back to "Arteta needs players he can trust".

You’re hilarious. He’s overhauling his squad. And the core that he depends on has gotten him to the top of the league. He’s also doing this without ESR wfo he obviously likes and Zinchenko who started the season so well. If he was down in 8th maybe you’d make sense, but he’s pushing his resources to first right now with top 2 metrics.

Do you think Klopp and Pep made do with whatever? Half of the world’s 10 most expensive central defenders were signed by Pep while at City.

RocktheCasbah

awooga83 wrote:
With the 3 games coming up and the way we have been playing I think we will likely get 4-7 points in this period and City will probably overhaul us before the world cup break. Something that was probably going to happen but I hoped we could make it to that to not drop points but we seem to have run out of steam at the moment.

Look at this way though, 7 points would get us to 35 and over half of last season's points tally after 14 matches.

I think our blistering start to the season has, not unreasonably, given people loftier expectations than we had at the start of the season. The goal for this season was surely just get back to Champions League football - not challenge for the league title. Thirty five points, with 24 games and 72 points left to fight for, gives a huge opportunity to do so.

Burnwinter

No doubt we're ahead of any marker we could've laid down at the start of the season.

A couple of things, though.

Firstly, one of our big troubles last season was clusters of bad results. We must bounce back against Forest. Never mind away to Chelsea, it's a tough encounter that was never there to be chalked up as three points.

Secondly, this is going to be a strange, interrupted season. Every point matters now, because the Arsenal that emerges after the World Cup for a long helter-skelter of fixtures might not be the one we've seen so far.

RocktheCasbah

Absolutely, but you could make that case for any team in the Premier League.

Also, the point about our start is that it does provide a degree of insulation from a couple of bad results. I'm not saying we could take losing three games back to back three times, but we have got ourselves a cushion.

I guess the other unknowable is how will the board view the squad as we head into the January window? Do they think the squad as is is good enough to hit the top 4 (and who knows what else?), or will they look at Arteta's current reluctance to rotate a little and think he might need to be given a couple more options? Especially given what happened when we didn't strengthen last January.

Burnwinter

There's an "Arsenal is" and an "Arsenal ought" here. Arsenal ought to have beaten Southampton, but we didn't. Not only that, but you could see from the preceding matches fatigue was beginning to set in.

For many of our players, the World Cup will be an unprecedented mid-season holiday, and I'm sure quite a few are looking ahead to that already. Can Arteta keep us on track recording results at and above expectations?

With these two points dropped, the run-in to the Cup from here will determine how we're viewed.

Less than 6 points from Forest, Chelsea, Wolves and we'll be seen as showing signs of frailty. But somehow roll to the break with 9 more points, sitting on top of the league, and even City will be starting to wonder what they've got to do to reel us in.

QuincyAbeyie

Burnwinter wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I honestly can't believe we're unironically back to "Arteta needs players he can trust".

I mean it's now subtended by "to get from third or fourth to the title" rather than "to get from eighth to fourth at least".

I certainly don't look at City's team and see us them as two players ahead of us, unless that's KDB and Haaland or players of that quality.

To be honest I don't think I'll ever be able to "expect" a title as long as City are what they are. I'm not unhappy with our season so far, only with this match and that the excuses are things like being short out wide and fatigue. This from the same people who thought it was fine to leave us short out wide in the summer and theorize that not resting players is better for them than resting them.

QuincyAbeyie

Burnwinter wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I honestly can't believe we're unironically back to "Arteta needs players he can trust".

I mean it's now subtended by "to get from third or fourth to the title" rather than "to get from eighth to fourth at least".

I certainly don't look at City's team and see us them as two players ahead of us, unless that's KDB and Haaland or players of that quality.

To be honest I don't think I'll ever be able to "expect" a title as long as City are what they are. It's not often things click as well as they did for Liverpool and even they only got one title to show for their best ever generation. CL is probably easier to win despite having tougher teams because of the nature of the knockout format.

I'm not unhappy with our season so far, only with this match and that the excuses are things like being short out wide and fatigue. This from the same people who thought it was fine to leave us short out wide in the summer and theorize that not resting players is better for them than resting them.

Burnwinter

Yeah, I agree. It is easier to imagine the end of the league than the end of City's stranglehold at the moment.

The title is the wrong new objective as you point out. The next step is to maintain our league status while competing in the Champions League. But in the current competitive environment we'll probably want two or three signings for that, on top of securing important contract extensions.

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