Loan Watch 21/22: Page 15 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Loan Watch 21/22

Ray

Jed wrote:
I don’t agree with Ray’s assertion that we can’t have 3 top CB’s at the club because we’re not at City or Liverpool’s level. Yes we likely need European football to pull it off, but even if we don’t, we’re still Arsenal ffs. Is a 20 year old Saliba really gonna demand a starting role straight away? He’ll have to prove himself like everyone else.

[font=Source Sans Pro]I mean it's all well and good thinking that, but it doesn't really matter what you think, it's about what the player thinks. Arteta obviously prefers White to Saliba and there's now way Saliba is going to come back to Arsenal after the season he's having at Marseille to sit on the bench at Arsenal. Lets see what he does.[/font]

[font=Source Sans Pro]I'm not saying Arsenal can't have 3 top CB's, just not one with the hype and talent of Saliba sitting on the bench at this stage of his career when he needs games, which tbf he is getting at Marseille. No point being delusional and thinking players will treat Arsenal the same as clubs that have recently won PLs and CLs[/font]

goon

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
Pape has started 7 games, same as Odegaard and 3 less than Saka and Smith-Rowe. And I have to say as much as I wanted to see him start and have a run, he's mins have definitely dropped away more recently on merit (just like Odagaard vs Laca).

And this is without European football. I don't see it as a problem at all.

You really need to start fact checking your stuff because whenever I do it for you I find some fake shit. Pepe started five games, not seven. More importantly he played the first two, dropped out of the squad altogether, played another two, benched for the full 90, got 25 minutes at Brighton and played the full game vs Palace, benched for the full 90 vs Villa then five minutes at Leicester. That's the text book definition of a bit part player.

In comparison the other three played in every single game (Odegaard in every game since signing after Chelsea) for at least 25 minutes, ESR and Saka even started nine out of ten. Massive difference there.

The most important thing about all this isn't that you just play players on merit, otherwise someone RVP would never have gotten back into the team in 10/11 (which he never should've really). You look at the squad you have available and make your decisions based on current level and potential. Pepe when in form offers something no one else in our squad does, he's been grossly misused and still probably has more goals to his name than the other three combined. If you give a player garbage minutes and he doesn't perform afterwards then no shit you're always going to be right because you're at least partially at fault for them not being up to it.

I'm talking about all competitions as I have been throughout.

So basically he started and played 90 mins in 4 of the first 5 league games, or 5 of the first 6 games period, missing one due to illness/injury, didn't play particularly well and then lost his place. Again, I fail to see the problem.

I take you point on potential but it's not like Willian is taking his mins, it's Saka, Smith-Rowe and Odegaard. Even if it wasn't, if someone is clearly performing better and having a greater impact on the side then you play them.

jones

If you think starting a game vs Wimbledon or West Brom is the same as starting a league fixture then sure, let's call those stop start stutters a run he's been given and didn't impress in.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing the point or not but it's clear it's a moot point now. It's painfully obvious Arteta doesn't like Pepe, from throwing him under the bus for a red, to benching him whenever he got the chance to buying Willian and playing him in front of him despite looking like shit. Acting like there are enough minutes to go round for Pepe and co when Arteta clearly plays favourites is disingenuous already, acting like it's not going to be an issue with three players who cost a combined 100m+ in a position where consistency is most important is averting your gaze from reality.

goon

I literally gave you an example of him playing 90 consecutive mins in 4/5 league games plus a cup game with 1 enforced absence, but yes if ignore the league games then it's 'stop start' 😆

I've been a big advocate for Pepe but you can't expect to have 10 games to get going especially when the alternatives are playing well. I'm sure he'll get his chance again. Normal competition.

All I'd say is go and have a look at the benches of other top four sides. Hell have a look at the amount of money left on the respective benches in the Spurs-United game, never mind Chelsea, Liverpool and City.

Coombs

Goon is obviously in the right but given the state of jones's tattered mind I'm starting to feel a bit bad for him. Watching Arteta's football has flayed the brain of a once perfectly rational man.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
I literally gave you an example of him playing 90 consecutive mins in 4/5 league games plus a cup game with 1 enforced absence, but yes if ignore the league games then it's 'stop start' 😆

I've been a big advocate for Pepe but you can't expect to have 10 games to get going especially when the alternatives are playing well. I'm sure he'll get his chance again. Normal competition.

All I'd say is go and have a look at the benches of other top four sides. Hell have a look at the amount of money left on the respective benches in the Spurs-United game, never mind Chelsea, Liverpool and City.

I think Jones point is that Arteta has his favorites and will continue playing them until something forces his hand. Pepe played well and then gets dropped immediately. Saka stinks up the joint, in poor form but will continue to be started. I don't specifically disagree with Arteta's choices for example especially when we have won the last 3 games, but throughout his reign you will always find example of Pepe playing absolutely brilliantly like last season only to be dropped next game. He has never been given a run of games to prove his worth imo.

jones

Coombs wrote:
Goon is obviously in the right but given the state of jones's tattered mind I'm starting to feel a bit bad for him. Watching Arteta's football has flayed the brain of a once perfectly rational man.

Imagine thinking I was ever even remotely rational

Even worse that I'm blatantly right. They should rename the syndrome from Stockholm to San Sebastian because I've never seen football fans perform this kind of mental acrobatics just to appease the man who's taken the club hostage. Obviously you and ofty were deranged before already but this is something else even for you

goon

To be fair it's only half as impressive as your mental acrobatics to links every point I make into a defence of Arteta, what this discussion has to do with him I have no idea.

To save you some time, my post in the film thread about Dune is not thinly veiled praise for Arteta, it's just a comment on a film I saw recently.

Jed

Ray wrote:
Jed wrote:
I don’t agree with Ray’s assertion that we can’t have 3 top CB’s at the club because we’re not at City or Liverpool’s level. Yes we likely need European football to pull it off, but even if we don’t, we’re still Arsenal ffs. Is a 20 year old Saliba really gonna demand a starting role straight away? He’ll have to prove himself like everyone else.

[font=Source Sans Pro]I mean it's all well and good thinking that, but it doesn't really matter what you think, it's about what the player thinks. Arteta obviously prefers White to Saliba and there's now way Saliba is going to come back to Arsenal after the season he's having at Marseille to sit on the bench at Arsenal. Lets see what he does.[/font]

[font=Source Sans Pro]I'm not saying Arsenal can't have 3 top CB's, just not one with the hype and talent of Saliba sitting on the bench at this stage of his career when he needs games, which tbf he is getting at Marseille. No point being delusional and thinking players will treat Arsenal the same as clubs that have recently won PLs and CLs[/font]

Well if you look at all the big/top clubs, they all have 3 or 4 top international level CB’s. Even Leicester have Soyuncu, Evans, Fofana and Vestergaard to choose from. It’s not being delusional to think that it is perfectly possible to have Gabriel, White and Saliba competing for the CB spots at Arsenal.

Big Willie

Didn't realise Evans was a top international CB.

jones

goon wrote:
To be fair it's only half as impressive as your mental acrobatics to links every point I make into a defence of Arteta, what this discussion has to do with him I have no idea.

You're the one who responded to people stating that we won't be able to give Gabriel White and Saliba enough minutes "look at how great Our Dear Leader handled Pepe ESR Odegaard and Saka".

Ray

Jed wrote:
Ray wrote:
[font=Source Sans Pro]I mean it's all well and good thinking that, but it doesn't really matter what you think, it's about what the player thinks. Arteta obviously prefers White to Saliba and there's now way Saliba is going to come back to Arsenal after the season he's having at Marseille to sit on the bench at Arsenal. Lets see what he does.[/font]

[font=Source Sans Pro]I'm not saying Arsenal can't have 3 top CB's, just not one with the hype and talent of Saliba sitting on the bench at this stage of his career when he needs games, which tbf he is getting at Marseille. No point being delusional and thinking players will treat Arsenal the same as clubs that have recently won PLs and CLs[/font]

Well if you look at all the big/top clubs, they all have 3 or 4 top international level CB’s. Even Leicester have Soyuncu, Evans, Fofana and Vestergaard to choose from. It’s not being delusional to think that it is perfectly possible to have Gabriel, White and Saliba competing for the CB spots at Arsenal.

Evans and Vestegaard (who they only got in because Fofana broke his leg) are both 30+ heading to retirement, not really comparable with 3 under 24s needing game time. The equivalent would probably be Mari and if we kept Luiz and Sokratis. They also occasionally play with 3 at the back so less of an issue for them. They wouldn’t be able to sign/keep Soyuncu / Fofana if they didn’t promise them starting spots.

Ricky1985

Just caught up with some highlights, and saw Saliba looking a little bit out of his depth up against Immobile in both the home and away game against Lazio in the Europa. Some really poor errors, lots of naive moments, also got knocked around a bit. In the game in France, he cost his team two goals with mistakes, the second was very poor.

It's good for him that he's learning away from the spotlight at Arsenal, even if playing for Marseille has its own pressures - which is also a good thing. Provided there's no serious problem with Arteta this could be a really good loan.

Qwiss

Has Azeez been injured or is his loan just a disaster?

jones

Just a shit loan so far, he's been on the bench for most matches. Hope the loan bloke is on his case and either get in Portsmouth's ear or get him a different loan because Cowley has his preferred midfield and he doesn't get a sniff regardless of whether they're winning or losing. They're stuck in mid table too so not like they're fighting for anything or expecting themselves to.

Ricky1985

I had a feeling he might struggle with the intensity and aggression in proper football. I reckon Kido Taylor-Hart might have a similarly difficult time of it when he goes out on loan.

goon

Cowley spoke about it recently:

‘I thought Miguel was bright against Cheltenham last night.

He has worked really hard on his game behind the scenes, it’s so different to the football he knows. He’s been trying to build up physically, and build his intensity and combativeness.

‘He earned it last night. Reeco was tired and it was an opportunity for him to come in and impact the team.

‘There have been no issues with Arsenal. We speak to them regularly, we have very good dialogue with them and a very good relationship.

‘They know we are working really, really hard with Miguel and I think they believe this has been a brilliant loan for him to this point.

‘They trust me and know we are desperate for Miguel to be a success here, that’s why we have brought him in.

‘We are also respectful that he’s only a young boy – aged 19 – and has never seen this level of football before.

‘He’s just learning and working out how he can use his skill set and be effective at this level.’

Hopefully he gets some more game time as the season goes on, but I do trust Cowley.

Ricky1985

Cowley did a good job with an 18/19 year old Smith Rowe, so I reckon he knows what he's doing. Especially as he seems to be agreeing with me! 🙂

Klaus

Ricky1985 wrote:
I had a feeling he might struggle with the intensity and aggression in proper football. I reckon Kido Taylor-Hart might have a similarly difficult time of it when he goes out on loan.

Me too Ricky. Azeez strikes me as a less exciting and less powerful Maitland-Niles at the same age.

It's always hard to predict who'll make it in the end but I'm just not sure I see the same edge in Azeez, Taylor-Hart, et al as I do in Patino and Hutchinson.

KingslandBarge

Torriera has apparently been finding his groove at Fiorentina, and some rumor on social about the loanee club intending to activate hi 15 million euro clause upon season's close. Not sure if that's the a first option clause or other

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