James Maddison: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

James Maddison

Coombs

What's the point of good scouting and development if you can't use those players in the market? You don't just "develop" a first team. It's unsustainable and usually impossible. Taking players from other teams in the league is also important, it deprives them and other rivals of that player. Not everyone can or should be scouted from cheaper leagues.

jones

Klaus wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
I'd agree they are both massively over priced but I wont cry if we get one of them either. As long as we don't justify selling off players with potential to be as good or better to do it.

Yeah, that's the thing. White and Maddison would be our best window in absolute yonks but neither play where we need reinforcements the most, and it's a real devil's bargain if we start to sell off players with massive potential who we've put a lot of effort, money and development into already. Today it might be Saliba and Willock. Tomorrow, Martinelli and Smith-Rowe? I fundamentally don't trust managers who operate this way and I think it's the wrong model for Arsenal. Whatever happened to getting back into good scouting and development?

Spot on about the latter part but really White and Maddison would be our worst window in years. How is 100m+ for two decent players good business?

English players are to be sold not bought.

goon

It comes down to motivation. If you sell an academy product it should be because you don't think they're going to good enough rather than because you need to raise some cash in the short run for ready made players. I would never be in favour of selling someone who looks like they're going to be great.

Willock is borderline for me but I'd like to see what he does this season, I can't imagine his value would drop much even if he failed to hit the highs he did for Newcastle this season.

As for saving money by looking abroad, you can waste plenty by doing that too. How many genuinely good footballers have ended up looking average in the PL? The demands are very different, and if you can afford to bypass that risk, I'm not really too fussed about the impact it has on the balance sheet.

jones

Coombs wrote:
What's the point of good scouting and development if you can't use those players in the market? You don't just "develop" a first team. It's unsustainable and usually impossible. Taking players from other teams in the league is also important, it deprives them and other rivals of that player. Not everyone can or should be scouted from cheaper leagues.

Clubs that have enough money and pull to buy local do that, we wouldn't exactly get Maddison for free would we. The 80m they'd be getting they could buy another Ndidi Pereira and Söyüncü and still have some spare change.

BWooley

There's something about Maddison that just doesn't sit right with me. Especially for that price. If we are willing to spend 50M+, surely we lock Locatelli up first before Juventus can even get him on the phone.

mdgoonah41

the bigger problem is, why didn't we buy maddison when he went from norwich to leicester? they paid like £20m for him.

the time to buy english talent is their first real move. we paid £12m for ox in his first move, and then sold him for £35m. that is good business. he never really fully developed here, but if he had developed, we'd have found a top class player for £12m. instead, we turned a big profit. sure, we spent years trying to develop him, but that is the cost of doing business.

there is relatively little upside in spending £80m on a player like maddison. hes not a world class talent, hes a very good, established PL player. if he was the finishing touch on our ready to compete team, then it would make more sense. but for where we are right now, it would be very risky, imo

Clrnc

Agreed md. Few years later we will be bidding 80m for Buendia and asking the same question.

goon wrote:
I think Maddison is being done a disservice on here. He's basically a Smith-Rowe but 4 years down the line.

Don't see the similarity at all. ESR is very alike Grealish stylistically not Madison who is more of a KDB

Coombs

mdgoonah41 wrote:
the bigger problem is, why didn't we buy maddison when he went from norwich to leicester? they paid like £20m for him.

the time to buy english talent is their first real move. we paid £12m for ox in his first move, and then sold him for £35m. that is good business. he never really fully developed here, but if he had developed, we'd have found a top class player for £12m. instead, we turned a big profit. sure, we spent years trying to develop him, but that is the cost of doing business.

there is relatively little upside in spending £80m on a player like maddison. hes not a world class talent, hes a very good, established PL player. if he was the finishing touch on our ready to compete team, then it would make more sense. but for where we are right now, it would be very risky, imo

Ox is a perfect example of a risk you'd want another club to make, and then poach him if he gets good. Selling a player for profit only counts for something if you buy someone better with the money.

mdgoonah41

Coombs wrote:
mdgoonah41 wrote:
the bigger problem is, why didn't we buy maddison when he went from norwich to leicester? they paid like £20m for him.

the time to buy english talent is their first real move. we paid £12m for ox in his first move, and then sold him for £35m. that is good business. he never really fully developed here, but if he had developed, we'd have found a top class player for £12m. instead, we turned a big profit. sure, we spent years trying to develop him, but that is the cost of doing business.

there is relatively little upside in spending £80m on a player like maddison. hes not a world class talent, hes a very good, established PL player. if he was the finishing touch on our ready to compete team, then it would make more sense. but for where we are right now, it would be very risky, imo

Ox is a perfect example of a risk you'd want another club to make, and then poach him if he gets good. Selling a player for profit only counts for something if you buy someone better with the money.

i dont know, i think big clubs do both at the same time. a good transfer strategy involves looking for the bargains, the young english players who havent exploded yet, and making one or two big signings a window to find ready made solutions for gaps in the squad. this summer, we should be spending big money on a world class, established CM. we should be spending the rest of our funds looking at younger players in the less than £20m range who havent yet established their profile who we can develop alongside the saka, ESR, martinelli group

goon

Clrnc wrote:
Agreed md. Few years later we will be bidding 80m for Buendia and asking the same question.

goon wrote:
I think Maddison is being done a disservice on here. He's basically a Smith-Rowe but 4 years down the line.

Don't see the similarity at all. ESR is very alike Grealish stylistically not Madison who is more of a KDB

Nah, I think you've pegged Maddison wrong. He's got good movement and has a lot of good quick interchanges in the final/middle third of the pitch. Pretty much exactly how ESR plays the number 10 role. Like ESR he can carry the ball to a good level too but it's not really his speciality.

Grealish on the other hand is more like Saka if anything, great at running at his man, carrying the ball and committing the opposition.

mentalvortex

mdgoonah41 wrote:
Coombs wrote:
Ox is a perfect example of a risk you'd want another club to make, and then poach him if he gets good. Selling a player for profit only counts for something if you buy someone better with the money.

i dont know, i think big clubs do both at the same time. a good transfer strategy involves looking for the bargains, the young english players who havent exploded yet, and making one or two big signings a window to find ready made solutions for gaps in the squad. this summer, we should be spending big money on a world class, established CM. we should be spending the rest of our funds looking at younger players in the less than £20m range who havent yet established their profile who we can develop alongside the saka, ESR, martinelli group

Agreed. Better to sign the likes of Olise or Brooks now than entering a turf war to sign them for 50-60 million couple of years down the line.

goon

mdgoonah41 wrote:
the bigger problem is, why didn't we buy maddison when he went from norwich to leicester? they paid like £20m for him.

the time to buy english talent is their first real move. we paid £12m for ox in his first move, and then sold him for £35m. that is good business. he never really fully developed here, but if he had developed, we'd have found a top class player for £12m. instead, we turned a big profit. sure, we spent years trying to develop him, but that is the cost of doing business.

there is relatively little upside in spending £80m on a player like maddison. hes not a world class talent, hes a very good, established PL player. if he was the finishing touch on our ready to compete team, then it would make more sense. but for where we are right now, it would be very risky, imo

Generally speaking you're right, but not in our current predicament. We need to overspend, overpay and get as close to a sure thing as we can get to steady the ground. Once you're back on a good footing, you can then start to go back to recruiting in a more responsible way.

The bigger gamble isn't in spending more, right now the bigger gamble is spending less and trying to find a bargain.

Fwiw, I don't for a second believe we'd spend £80m on Maddison.

Klaus

Coombs wrote:
What's the point of good scouting and development if you can't use those players in the market? You don't just "develop" a first team. It's unsustainable and usually impossible. Taking players from other teams in the league is also important, it deprives them and other rivals of that player.

Okay but how does this relate to guys like White and Maddison? Neither even made it into the English Euro squad. That's not saying I don't rate them or don't think they would improve us, but what are they if not more potential? They're not exactly established top class, nor are they terribly young.

Clrnc

White is in the England squad Klaus, hence his inflated fee

Klaus

Oh right.

QuincyAbeyie

To be fair he wasn't originally called up but joined the squad after Alexander-Arnold was injured.

goon

White has only had one season in the PL to be fair, at a pretty low profile team too. He's done well to get any sort of call up. I think Brighton rejected a £25m bid for him last summer from Leeds too, so I don't think it's this season that his price has inflated.

Rohit

goon wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
Agreed md. Few years later we will be bidding 80m for Buendia and asking the same question.

Don't see the similarity at all. ESR is very alike Grealish stylistically not Madison who is more of a KDB

Nah, I think you've pegged Maddison wrong. He's got good movement and has a lot of good quick interchanges in the final/middle third of the pitch. Pretty much exactly how ESR plays the number 10 role. Like ESR he can carry the ball to a good level too but it's not really his speciality.

Maddison at present is also a much better passer than ESR, an aspect in my opinion ESR can greatly improve upon. I know the fee could be really high but if his signing doesn't restrict spending on other areas then he will be a fantastic signing.

Klaus

goon wrote:
White has only had one season in the PL to be fair, at a pretty low profile team too. He's done well to get any sort of call up. I think Brighton rejected a £25m bid for him last summer from Leeds too, so I don't think it's this season that his price has inflated.

Yeah I'm not disputing they're good players, I like both of them. I'm saying that there's selling off your talents if it means you suddenly have the means to buy top class players, and then there's selling off your own talents because you want to gamble on more potential.

QuincyAbeyie

Rohit wrote:
goon wrote:
Nah, I think you've pegged Maddison wrong. He's got good movement and has a lot of good quick interchanges in the final/middle third of the pitch. Pretty much exactly how ESR plays the number 10 role. Like ESR he can carry the ball to a good level too but it's not really his speciality.

Maddison at present is also a much better passer than ESR, an aspect in my opinion ESR can greatly improve upon. I know the fee could be really high but if his signing doesn't restrict spending on other areas then he will be a fantastic signing.

I get what you mean, but every signing restricts spending in other areas. Whatever amount we end up spending, the question will be, if we buy Maddison for 60-70m, whether there would've been other ways to spend 60-70m that would've improved the team more.

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