Premier League 21/22: Page 60 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Premier League 21/22

QuincyAbeyie

goon wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
In matches where I'm not as biased as during Arsenal games I don't think of it that way. It's not like the Kane tackle sets a precedent - it was a red card and a blatantly wrong call. Still doesn't mean every other red shouldn't be called unless it's a worse tackle.

Of course it sets a precedent. If VAR don't consider one worthy of a review then why do it with the latter? You're adjusting the parameters within a game. You can half accept a dodgy interpretation of what is deemed an obvious error, but the lack of consistency is what drives people mad.

In grey areas I agree, but when it's a stonewall red I don't think it matters. That VAR team has refereed other games as well, why would the precedent not last for the next game then? The rules don't change.

Zero red would've been two mistakes. The refs can't alter the rules thereby making it a correct call to let Robertson get away with kicking people.

goon

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
goon wrote:
Of course it sets a precedent. If VAR don't consider one worthy of a review then why do it with the latter? You're adjusting the parameters within a game. You can half accept a dodgy interpretation of what is deemed an obvious error, but the lack of consistency is what drives people mad.

In grey areas I agree, but when it's a stonewall red I don't think it matters. That VAR team has refereed other games as well, why would the precedent not last for the next game then? The rules don't change.

Zero red would've been two mistakes. The refs can't alter the rules thereby making it a correct call to let Robertson get away with kicking people.

There's no such thing as 'stonewall' in the rules as far as dangerous play goes, they all come down to the referee's interpretation. There's certainly no firm rules on when VAR intervenes. Your argument works on the assumption that the first is a mistake, which if we were talking about the on pitch official, I'd be able to accept. But given that it's VAR, who have all the time in the world to consider whether or not something is worthy of intervention, I don't see how it can be.

The only viable excuse they had was that the ref saw it, issued a yellow and they didn't deem it a clear and obvious error. They would be wrong, but they'd be able to justify it. Now they don't have a leg to stand on.

QuincyAbeyie

The referees in the VAR room are useless, no arguing there. The long and short of it for me is that

1 I think two red cards are correct. Missing both would be even worse than missing one.

2 While it would be more fair in regards to the teams to "set a precedent" I think it sounds incredibly dangerous to basically tell the ogres of the PL that since Kane didn't get a red card then you can get away with everything for the remainder of the match. The safety of talented players goes first.

Happy to agree to disagree overall, I get where you coming from even if I disagree.

goon

I see where you’re coming from too and can’t argue that Robertson deserves a red regardless. Also agree that it shouldn’t set a precedent, but the gripe isn’t really that he got a red, it’s that by giving him a red any conceivable reason for not giving Kane one vanishes.

Sicario

Surreal Spurs have 3 games in hand on us, think today was 2 points dropped for them as Liverpool were for the taking.

ohboy

To be fair to Spurs, they should have walked it. Best performance I have seen from them in years. Absolutely should have scored five or six. Gave teams a blueprint to really get after Liverpool.

Obviously some of the threat would have been negated if Van Dijk was present.

QuincyAbeyie

Some of the threat would also have been negated if Kane got an early red.

ohboy

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Some of the threat would also have been negated if Kane got an early red.

Understand that, but simply based on their 11 vs 11 tactics, they were miles ahead of Liverpool.

I can’t remember the last time Liverpool got cut apart in such a fashion, maybe the thumping they got by Villa when Covid appeared?

It truly was impressive. Although, apart from Liverpool and City, who else would play so high up the pitch for Spurs to exploit?

Kane himself should have scored four, so really it was bittersweet for them, but if they continue in that vein they will the favourites for the 4th spot.

We have them coming up, and we need to make sure we don’t allow that sort of space for them utilise, or they will run riot.

On the flip side, Tierney and Martinelli should get a lot of joy against Emerson Royal.

Ricky1985

ohboy!!! wrote:
To be fair to Spurs, they should have walked it. Best performance I have seen from them in years. Absolutely should have scored five or six. Gave teams a blueprint to really get after Liverpool.

Obviously some of the threat would have been negated if Van Dijk was present.

I didn't watch the game, but Liverpool were missing van Dijk, Fabinho, Thiago and Henderson, so I don't think you can really read anything at all into it. That Liverpool midfield was absolute nonsense.

As a wider point, I think it's underplayed just how important the quality of the players on the pitch is the be all, end all. It's as if, in this case, fans expect Liverpool to be Liverpool because Klopp is still the coach on the day or because they're usually so good. You can see it with our attack in recent games - the addition of one little superstar in Martinelli and things immediately kick up a notch; good players make good players better.

flobaba

Again, that's never been contested as far as I understand. Liverpool's level was always going to drop with that many first team players out not just because of quality but also because of continuity/team chemistry.

Good managers are able to coax a bit more out of their squads even when they don't have top quality players. And they definitely are able to get their known quality players contributing at their best consistently, while playing a style that suits said players' strengths.

The fact that we are playing a style that suits Lacazette better than it suits one of the best goal getters in our history should be a huge concern to anyone paying attention.

goon

Why would it be a concern out of interest? It's the same with Liverpool and Firmino, you reckon Mane and Salah are as prolific with Auba up top? City opt to play midfielders up top rather than Jesus at times. It's a fairly standard tactic over the last decade to have a 9 who drops deeper. The only teams who've had success otherwise are the ones who play on the counter.

edit: I'd actually be more critical of how we utilised Auba on the left. Looked like a defensive winger at times.

Burnwinter

Not sure it really works that way anyway. Lacazette's role has been partly to drag defenders out of position for the runners—it's just that it's been Martinelli scoring those Auba-esque chances last couple of matches. Auba was missing sitters here and there and our attack wasn't clicking.

Got nothing good to say about how Arteta gratuitously publicly humiliated him and then doubled and tripled down on it though.

goon

I don't think Spurs did anything particularly special, they resembled the Mourinho side from the start of last season funnily enough that just left Kane and Son high up the pitch to kill teams on the counter. I do think that's a lesson we can learn though, against teams like Liverpool our forwards have starting positions that are far too deep to kill them on the counter. I remember a few examples where we win the ball in midfield and our forwards are all behind or just about level with the ball carrier, Lokonga for example.

jones

Ricky1985 wrote:
As a wider point, I think it's underplayed just how important the quality of the players on the pitch is the be all, end all.

Anyone would've favoured Liverpool before the game even with their makeshift midfield, Fabinho is a huge miss but they've won games without him and with the likes of Keita and Milner in there before. Don't think anyone expected them to be thoroughly dominated the same players who under Mourinho and Nuno looked like complete shit, yesterday's match was to the contrary testament how much a great coach can make a difference.

Really hope someone breaks Kane's legs asap and ends his career before he ends another one, although with Robertson it wouldn't be a shame either because he tries the same shit himself every other match day. Pathetic decision to give him a yellow

ohboy

goon wrote:
I don't think Spurs did anything particularly special, they resembled the Mourinho side from the start of last season funnily enough that just left Kane and Son high up the pitch to kill teams on the counter. I do think that's a lesson we can learn though, against teams like Liverpool our forwards have starting positions that are far too deep to kill them on the counter. I remember a few examples where we win the ball in midfield and our forwards are all behind or just about level with the ball carrier, Lokonga for example.

Not only were Son and Kane left high, but Ndombele, Winks et al constantly played balls quickly through or over Liverpool’s high line.

Genuinely shocked how they cut them apart time and time again. Ricky is right, no Henderson and Fabinho means that there is more space available, but most teams couldn’t create the sheer amount of sitters that Spurs created, and then contrived to miss.

flobaba

goon wrote:
Why would it be a concern out of interest? It's the same with Liverpool and Firmino, you reckon Mane and Salah are as prolific with Auba up top? City opt to play midfielders up top rather than Jesus at times. It's a fairly standard tactic over the last decade to have a 9 who drops deeper. The only teams who've had success otherwise are the ones who play on the counter.

edit: I'd actually be more critical of how we utilised Auba on the left. Looked like a defensive winger at times.

Yep, the bolded bit is exactly the point I’m making. Using Auba as CF the way we play is obviously not working as well as it should - he simply isn’t rugged enough to play that link man role. So you find other ways/tactics/formations to make him effective - to exploit his pace and movement, and definitely don’t have him dropping so deep when he plays on the wings. It uses up too much of his energy, and we lose something in both attack and in defence. Instead, you’ve basically watched him play himself out of form (and possibly out of the club) and done little to nothing to help.

What we are doing is akin to Spurs playing in a way that makes the most out of say Dele Alli than Harry Kane. You just don’t do that. You put your top man out there, and give him a platform to succeed. I’m arguing we aren’t doing that with Auba at the moment. And if Arteta is determined to persist with this style, then Auba really has no place in our squad.

jones

Also apparently Robertson's red is the first sending off Liverpool have suffered in more than two years. Mental

ohboy

jones wrote:
Also apparently Robertson's red is the first sending off Liverpool have suffered in more than two years. Mental

Sheer madness.

Just against us, Mane should have been sent off twice in the last couple of years, Robertson as well.

They have been well protected by the referees the last few years.

jones

😆 how are these people in charge

goon

Shameless mafia type corrupt organisation.

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