Gunner89 wrote:

Hypocrisy of this forum summed up in this thread.

ESR has had 2-3 good months and a 30m fee is laughable.

White has had an entire good season and 45m is overpiced.

He hasn't had an entire good season, he's had an OK season. He's nowhere near the finished article. We are paying £50m for a guy we are hoping will turn into a £50m player. This is like spending £80m on ESR.

I’m not stressed. I know we will get another midfielder. I’m expecting Neves. Wouldn’t mind his countryman Renato Sanches though

jones wrote:

Don Pacifico wrote:

And I'm not saying Arteta is perfect in this area. He's shown he's flawed but there are plenty of experienced, successful managers who are flawed in this area.

Can we get one of those then?

I agree btw on the first point. Arteta is not the only one at fault for the handling of Saliba, Edu and the bloke we got in to manage our loanees are partially responsible too. Arteta just gets the most criticism because the decision against Saliba originally came from him.

I'm holding tight on this one. If it becomes clear that we're going to permanently sell Saliba, then unquestionably something has gone wrong. What exactly that is may come out in the wash but I'm still hoping there is a role for him the squad, even if it's looking increasingly unlikely.

And who knows, there is always the possibility that he'll turn out a dud? I admit it looks unlikely but the Bielik comparison someone made earlier is a good example of how despite the fact a significant proportion of the fanbase claim a player is top-notch, sometimes the evidence that follows seems to suggest otherwise and that the club did actually know what they were doing (rare as that may seem).

When was Bielik ever rated as highly as Saliba?

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

What I find interesting is that not a single one on here would probably propose spending 50m on a CB before we were linked with White, yet when it happens it's a wise decision. Personally I think it's just people wanting things to turn out okay, but maybe a lot of people just changed their mind about CB being a priority in that time intervall.

I think it's based on the assumption that this move implies we have money to spend elsewhere. My read is that most people are still quite sceptical of the price.

Claudius wrote:

I’m expecting Neves.

If this is what happens we should've definitely reallocated funds from the White signing to get a class CM instead.

Qwiss! wrote:

When was Bielik ever rated as highly as Saliba?

I don't think it matters whether he was rated as highly, the point stands. My recollection is there were a few people who spoke vociferously about how the club would regret this and that he'd go on to be a top defender.

Sometimes the popular consensus can be convinced of something but doesn't mean it's correct.

And look, based on what I've seen/read, I expect Saliba to be a top defender but I'm open to the fact that I might be wrong.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

What I find interesting is that not a single one on here would probably propose spending 50m on a CB before we were linked with White, yet when it happens it's a wise decision. Personally I think it's just people wanting things to turn out okay, but maybe a lot of people just changed their mind about CB being a priority in that time intervall.

I want a CAM, CM and probably a right back (though Chambers definitely grew on me) as a priority. The rest is a bonus. Whether or not it's a wise decision depends on what we do elsewhere, but going by the news stories, it doesn't sound like we're trying to fill the other positions with Willianesque free transfers. 

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

Mings is decent. Has his shortcomings but we don’t need another left sided centreback

Mings is arrogant without the necessary skill. He makes far too many mistakes to be a top cb. 

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Claudius wrote:

I’m expecting Neves.

If this is what happens we should've definitely reallocated funds from the White signing to get a class CM instead.

Maybe we could tell Brighton we changed our mind but keep the money and give us Bissouma instead.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Claudius wrote:

I’m expecting Neves.

If this is what happens we should've definitely reallocated funds from the White signing to get a class CM instead.

I asked this last time, but who does the extra funds get you? 

By all accounts even someone like Locatelli would cost about the same as Neves, as would Bissouma who was everyone's first choice here not long ago. Who's the attainable CM you sign with more money?

If we end up with Neves, it won't be because of a lack of funds.

We need to score more easy goals. One way to do that is to create more attacking against a defense off balance. Having a cb who can quickly transition from defending to attacking can be very helpful. Ben White looks like he reads the game well, which means he can intercept/win back the ball, and plays with his head up, which might mean he'll try to get the ball forward quickly.

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

Phroooaaar

Those forward dribbles are most impressive!

goon wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

If this is what happens we should've definitely reallocated funds from the White signing to get a class CM instead.

I asked this last time, but who does the extra funds get you? 

By all accounts even someone like Locatelli would cost about the same as Neves, as would Bissouma who was everyone's first choice here not long ago. Who's the attainable CM you sign with more money?

If we end up with Neves, it won't be because of a lack of funds.

I asked you back to get clarification on whether you were saying that spending 80m on a midfielder doesn't get you anything more than spending 30m, if you replied I didn't see it. I don't think that if you give someone 80m and tell him to get the best midfielder he can to Arsenal then he comes back with Neves and 50m cash. There are plenty of midfielders in world football, do you seriously think Neves is the best one out of everyone who would come here? I haven't watched that much football last season, but from what I'm hearing players like Neuhaus, Gravenberch, Caqueret, Goncalves or Renato Sanches would be better signings. 

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goon wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

If this is what happens we should've definitely reallocated funds from the White signing to get a class CM instead.

I asked this last time, but who does the extra funds get you? 

By all accounts even someone like Locatelli would cost about the same as Neves, as would Bissouma who was everyone's first choice here not long ago. Who's the attainable CM you sign with more money?

If we end up with Neves, it won't be because of a lack of funds.

Surely you simply "allocate" the White money towards Locatelli then? If he's the same price as Neves.

I'm sorry he only cost 50mil.

That french guy seems decent enough.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

goon wrote:

I asked this last time, but who does the extra funds get you? 

By all accounts even someone like Locatelli would cost about the same as Neves, as would Bissouma who was everyone's first choice here not long ago. Who's the attainable CM you sign with more money?

If we end up with Neves, it won't be because of a lack of funds.

I asked you back to get clarification on whether you were saying that spending 80m on a midfielder doesn't get you anything more than spending 30m, if you replied I didn't see it. I don't think that if you give someone 80m and tell him to get the best midfielder he can to Arsenal then he comes back with Neves and 50m cash. There are plenty of midfielders in world football, do you seriously think Neves is the best one out of everyone who would come here? I haven't watched that much football last season, but from what I'm hearing players like Neuhaus, Gravenberch, Caqueret, Goncalves or Renato Sanches would be better signings. 

I didn't say he's the best, I said he's not going to be much cheaper, if at all, than the sort of names you or I would love to see.  

How much do you think the guys you mentioned would cost? £50m (or £15m more than the quotes for Neves I've seen) at most? If we don't sign those guys, it may be because Arteta has poor taste in midfielders, it may be because they don't find us particularly attractive or have better options (at least 3 of those guys have been linked with United and Liverpool), but because we couldn't afford them? Maybe, but that seems like the least likely explanation in a summer we're linked with £60-70m James Maddison. 

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

That french guy seems decent enough.

Saliba looks great on the ball, but I do find it a bit concerning that he looks even more passive defensively than Holding, which is my main gripe with the latter. Hopefully, if he's not banished, that's something he'll improve on with age. Either that or he needs to be paired with someone aggressive.

Not sure about the stats above, but I watched white quite a few last season, and he was a very conservative passer.

Not sure where all the hype for him bringing us up the field comes from.

Not at all happy with this transfer, can’t believe we found £50mil in this climate, and spent it on him.

Seems quick, and hopefully he is a fast learner and can develop into a top player.

Claudius wrote:

Saliba is an inexperienced defender. He’s amazing. But inexperienced.
We spent this season bemoaning the overuse of kids in the frontline. Now we want to go and start a child in the back line. Losing Luiz meant that we needed another player who could lead the defense. I’ve mentioned this issue before (and gotten heat because Luiz is a figure of ridicule). Entrusting that leadership to a 20 year old seems a bit of a gamble. Does that mean that Saliba’s Arsenal career is over? No, he’s 20. He’s still got another decade in him

If he signs another contract with us. After this year (assuming he spends it on loan), he has two more. That's time to sell or extend.

By the way, £50m in this climate…
… I think pricing will bounce back this summer. The nearly full stadiums in Euro2020 will signal to clubs that futurr cash flows will be fine. So they will invest ahead of time

BWooley wrote:

Claudius wrote:

Saliba is an inexperienced defender. He’s amazing. But inexperienced.
We spent this season bemoaning the overuse of kids in the frontline. Now we want to go and start a child in the back line. Losing Luiz meant that we needed another player who could lead the defense. I’ve mentioned this issue before (and gotten heat because Luiz is a figure of ridicule). Entrusting that leadership to a 20 year old seems a bit of a gamble. Does that mean that Saliba’s Arsenal career is over? No, he’s 20. He’s still got another decade in him

If he signs another contract with us. After this year (assuming he spends it on loan), he has two more. That's time to sell or extend.

So we extend him.

goon wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I asked you back to get clarification on whether you were saying that spending 80m on a midfielder doesn't get you anything more than spending 30m, if you replied I didn't see it. I don't think that if you give someone 80m and tell him to get the best midfielder he can to Arsenal then he comes back with Neves and 50m cash. There are plenty of midfielders in world football, do you seriously think Neves is the best one out of everyone who would come here? I haven't watched that much football last season, but from what I'm hearing players like Neuhaus, Gravenberch, Caqueret, Goncalves or Renato Sanches would be better signings. 

I didn't say he's the best, I said he's not going to be much cheaper, if at all, than the sort of names you or I would love to see.  

How much do you think the guys you mentioned would cost? £50m (or £15m more than the quotes for Neves I've seen) at most?  If we don't sign those guys, it may be because Arteta has poor taste in midfielders, it may be because they don't find us particularly attractive or have better options (at least 3 of those guys have been linked with United and Liverpool), but because we couldn't afford them? Maybe, but that seems like the least likely explanation in a summer we're linked with £60-70m James Maddison. 

You can always pay more to make yourself attractive. It's like you haven't played FIFA career mode or FM before.

Claudius wrote:

Saliba is an inexperienced defender. He’s amazing. But inexperienced.
We spent this season bemoaning the overuse of kids in the frontline. Now we want to go and start a child in the back line. Losing Luiz meant that we needed another player who could lead the defense. I’ve mentioned this issue before (and gotten heat because Luiz is a figure of ridicule). Entrusting that leadership to a 20 year old seems a bit of a gamble. Does that mean that Saliba’s Arsenal career is over? No, he’s 20. He’s still got another decade in him

I don't think many would be unhappy with Saliba as a third choice (first choice backup). What people are unhappy about is clearly that it seems more likely that he'll be sold or loaned out. I wouldn't extend that contract if I was loaned out yet again after the previous fuck ups. If he will, then great - I don't mind one last loan if that happens.

Oh, and people have been bemoaning Saka's lack of rest, not the fact that he's been a starter for us. So I don't see the relevance there.

The difference is this. There are a lot of games where ESR and Saka aren’t at 100%. Saliba will not have that leeway in defense. You make a mistake in defense and the same cats here calling for Saliba will be the first to kill to him. Guaranteed.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

That french guy seems decent enough.

I was gonna add Saliba but seeing as he ( and Mavropranos) are in weaker leagues it wasn't really a like for like comparison.

Claudius wrote:

Saliba is an inexperienced defender. He’s amazing. But inexperienced.
We spent this season bemoaning the overuse of kids in the frontline. Now we want to go and start a child in the back line. Losing Luiz meant that we needed another player who could lead the defense. I’ve mentioned this issue before (and gotten heat because Luiz is a figure of ridicule). Entrusting that leadership to a 20 year old seems a bit of a gamble. Does that mean that Saliba’s Arsenal career is over? No, he’s 20. He’s still got another decade in him

First of all Ben White isn't ready to lead the defence. He wasn't close to being that player at Brighton and he wont be that here next season either.

Secondly no one is asking for Saliba to be a guaranteed starter or lead the defence or any other straw man bullshit. People just think he should be one of the 4 defenders next season and maybe actually play a game for Arsenal.

Qwiss! wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

That french guy seems decent enough.

I was gonna add Saliba but seeing as he ( and Mavropranos) are in weaker leagues it wasn't really a like for like comparison.

Forget about different leagues you can't compare defenders using stats full stop. Being a centre back for Arsenal and for Brighton you might as well be playing a different sport.

Could Ben White also share the RB spot with Chambers potentially? If so then I could potentially envision Saliba remaining involved.

jones wrote:

Qwiss! wrote:

I was gonna add Saliba but seeing as he ( and Mavropranos) are in weaker leagues it wasn't really a like for like comparison.

Forget about different leagues you can't compare defenders using stats full stop. Being a centre back for Arsenal and for Brighton you might as well be playing a different sport.

Stats for midfielders and attackers are very well-developed. You can compare them very easily. Defenders are very hard as Jones says. You are best of just watching them unfortunately

Whenever I watched Brighton White never really looked all that great. Dunks consistently been better than him but I think we are signing White more for his future upside than his current level.

Yes, I think so too. I don't mind it either if we spend on positions we need to. However, a club can't make too many signings for the future. Gabriel, Saliba, White all have massive future upside. Makes me wonder if the few reports on Holding being for sale could be true or there is no way that Saliba gets sold or loaned.

Qwiss! wrote:

Whenever I watched Brighton White never really looked all that great. Dunks consistently been better than him but I think we are signing White more for his future upside than his current level.

I've watched them a bit too and while White had a pretty decent first season in Premier League I also think Dunk - and even Webster - were better this season.

White did get Brighton's Player of The Year award though to be fair, which if nothing else tells you that he's very appreciated by their fans.

If we are looking to sell Holding then he should definitely get good value.

Mari and Holding coming out top in terms of aerials/aerials won, tackles won, and goals conceded, which is exactly what I would have guessed beforehand.