Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 44 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

lorddulaarsenal

Wenger was sacked for largely being responsible for assembling that crap squad

Clrnc

mdgoonah41 wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Maybe we don't have the resources to play as Arteta wants, maybe Arteta doesn't have the ability to get a team to play as he wants. One thing I'm sure of though is that we have a more talented team than Leeds United, yet we are even with them in mid table after 30 games. I don't know how anyone can think this team has been managed well.

i think people just want to believe arteta is great because he played for arsenal and hes young, and the idea of having our own version of guardiola is really enticing.

the reality is, hes just not a very good manager in any meaningful way. his man management leaves a lot to be desired, and tactically he seems completely clueless

There are points for and against Arteta. No matter what, I will stand by the fact that we are right to sack Emery and appoint Arteta. The 2 trophies don't lie. But whether we are right to stand by Arteta for the long term is the debating point for me.

What I can't stand is the refusal to believe points and results are meaningful judgement for some and our squad is so shite our results are fair. It's nonsense. Like what coombs said Arteta can be shit and our squad can be flawed. It's not mutually exclusive like people believe

Claudius

Clrnc wrote:
mdgoonah41 wrote:
i think people just want to believe arteta is great because he played for arsenal and hes young, and the idea of having our own version of guardiola is really enticing.

the reality is, hes just not a very good manager in any meaningful way. his man management leaves a lot to be desired, and tactically he seems completely clueless

There are points for and against Arteta. No matter what, I will stand by the fact that we are right to sack Emery and appoint Arteta. The 2 trophies don't lie. But whether we are right to stand by Arteta for the long term is the debating point for me.

What I can't stand is the refusal to believe points and results are meaningful judgement for some and our squad is so shite our results are fair. It's nonsense. Like what coombs said Arteta can be shit and our squad can be flawed. It's not mutually exclusive like people believe

Good post, sir.
My biggest gripe with Arteta is how he undermines himself with constant tinkering. He’s clearly doing better this year, but I think he would be performing even higher if he stabilised team selections and roles a little. Then players could develop automatisms a bit better. He seems to overthink things.

Kel Varnsen

Qwiss! wrote:
Maybe we don't have the resources to play as Arteta wants, maybe Arteta doesn't have the ability to get a team to play as he wants. One thing I'm sure of though is that we have a more talented team than Leeds United, yet we are even with them in mid table after 30 games. I don't know how anyone can think this team has been managed well.

Leeds are also playing much better football than us.

Kel Varnsen

There are a lot of things I can't stand about Arteta's style, but the lack of pressing is probably the worst. We are so passive and cautious off the ball that we don't get enough good quick counter attacks (and easy goals), and we make it so easy and comfortable for the other team. Arteta is a coward.

goon

Like Claud said, Arteta is too much of a tinkerer. A pet peeve of mine is managers who think their tactics are more valuable than their players is it's definitely a quality he has. He needs to learn that the whole point of tactics is to get the best out of your players and enable them to thrive.

Why is he suddenly playing Auba and Laca together again? When was the last time that really worked? Even against Newcastle we were garbage for the majority of the game. Why sit so deep? Why refuse to press a shakey Liverpool back line? It's the same approach we had against City and it sucks big time.

I simply don't understand why we can approach games against Chelsea and Spurs like we're the better team but pay a badly struggling Liverpool so much bloody respect. Coombs said the players are just losers but I don't buy that at all.

Claudius

I think we tried to press the Liverpool back line and it backfired. Note that we didn’t play out from the back. We just kept kicking it long all the time. I think Arteta identified the Liverpool back line as a weakness, and wanted to put the ball in that area and press them. But it didn’t work.

Again, it goes back to Arteta over-emphasising the opposition. It’s a bit of an Emery trait. Just stabilise your identity and beat teams with your preferred football

goon

I disagree, watch this game and compare it to the Southampton, Leeds or Spurs games. When their centre backs had the ball no one pressed. Odegaard normally presses with Laca as a front two but he dropped off, Laca managed a light jog towards the player on the ball and Auba and Pepe were pressing once their guy got the ball without every really getting close. All of this happened much deeper on the pitch too, usually in the middle third. The real pressing only began in our own half. This was from min one.

Then as we got desperate you saw bizarre things like Ceballos and Elneny pressing on their own like Sanchez back in the day, achieving nothing but leaving a gaping hole in central midfield.

Kel Varnsen

Claudius wrote:
I think we tried to press the Liverpool back line and it backfired. Note that we didn’t play out from the back. We just kept kicking it long all the time. I think Arteta identified the Liverpool back line as a weakness, and wanted to put the ball in that area and press them. But it didn’t work.

Again, it goes back to Arteta over-emphasising the opposition. It’s a bit of an Emery trait. Just stabilise your identity and beat teams with your preferred football

There are at least two problems here. First, we don't press as a team. Too many players just stand around and cover space. Second, we don't press at the right moments. Timing is everything. When we attack and lose the ball in the final third, that is when you press hard. Not run back and defend in two straight lines 10 yards into our own half. Arteta is a coward and doesn't allow the team to press high up the pitch. Probably too risky in his opinion..

goon

We do press high in the majority of the games though. Go back and look at the ones I mentioned or even United at Old Trafford, the centre backs were basically on the half way line.

He just pays Liverpool and City way too much respect.

Kel Varnsen

Pressing isn't positioning.

Claudius

This is a chart that supports what Kel is saying. It’s about 6 weeks, but i do not think it will have shifted significantly

[Twitter]

goon

Maybe not but it makes up 90% of it. If you're positioned high pretty much everyone in the side is in a good starting position to press, the pitch is compact and the gaps and distances are smaller and you're able to press with more players early. That's exactly what happened in those games.

goon

Show me a chart since Xmas.

Kel Varnsen

We don't press. Not to win the ball back anyway. Sometimes we play a high line and try to close passing lines, but that's not pressing. That's just defending with a high line. Pressing is as much of an attacking move as it is a defensive move.

Claudius

We have been pressing in fairness, but in specific circumstances. Think about the shot when Smith-Rowe hit the cross-bar versus Spurs. That was directly from pressing on the right flank, Partey recovering the ball quickly and moving it on to Smith-Rowe. Then think about the Odegaard goal against Olympiakos arose from Saka similarly pressing on the right hand side and Partey shifting the ball centrally.
Jointly, Odegaard, ESR and Saka have high pressing actions, so we are better off when that trio plays together. We are a bit of a Goldilocks team where everything needs to be just perfect.

Qwiss

goon wrote:
I disagree, watch this game and compare it to the Southampton, Leeds or Spurs games. When their centre backs had the ball no one pressed. Odegaard normally presses with Laca as a front two but he dropped off, Laca managed a light jog towards the player on the ball and Auba and Pepe were pressing once their guy got the ball without every really getting close. All of this happened much deeper on the pitch too, usually in the middle third. The real pressing only began in our own half. This was from min one.

Then as we got desperate you saw bizarre things like Ceballos and Elneny pressing on their own like Sanchez back in the day, achieving nothing but leaving a gaping hole in central midfield.

We are afraid to press Liverpool. Its sort of understandable when they are in form and have VVD but we should have pressed them properly yesterday with those mercenaries in defence.

awooga83

Agree Qwiss there are plenty of examples of inferior teams taking a more aggressive approach to Liverpool this season and having success. In the attacking part of play they can still be dangerous and we allowed them to get comfortable. Liverpool and city had some of their easiest matches against us because we were beaten psychologically before the game begun and that's coming from the manager was well.

He's had more then enough time to show what he's about and I just don't see any coherent team qualities. All we have to go on his his performance this last 18 months and this isn't better then Emery's tenure so how can the outcome not be the same.

AAStyle

Anzac wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
So Anzac do you truly believe that Arteta is like the best possible option? It seems like he was the only manager of the world capable of saving us. The situation is completely different: we are persisting with a rookie coach while out there there are well regarded managers that for sure would not make us look like a mediocre team.

A guy like Rodgers would be doing way better in his second season here. And that is just an example.

Apologies for length - I have edited this to reduce content several times & hope it still makes some sense.

TBH I don't believe Arteta is the only manager capable of turning the club around, but I do think the club is trying to be clever and have it's cake and eat it too, and on several levels. I do agree that his rookie status compounds the issues - both his own and those of the club & team, as well as for us as supporters, and this clouds the undertaking/process as he is unproven.

IMO Arteta is looking to play a style based upon the Guardiola-Barca-Cruyff-Ajax model. IIRC there was an observation made recently regarding a comment made in Michels' book, about setting a team up to play on the counter is the easiest option, whereas to look to become the protagonist to dominate possession and play in the opposition half is the hardest option, but ultimately the more successful if done correctly - or words to that effect. Guardiola struggled to do the same when he joined MC, and their results and performances in his 1st season were poor before it took hold. IMO there are signs that we are on track, but it will take longer to implement as a result of our purge/recruiting to date.

IMO much of our issues as a team are reflective of our issues as a club, and consequently I still expect Arteta to 'fail' as manager with us because of those issues, rather than any short comings in regards to his capabilities as an individual or in regards to his preferred style. Equally I don't think it is as simple as changing the manager to someone better able to work with what we have, let alone in saying someone like BR would categorically be doing a better job. We have had 3 administrations with 3 different managers and 3 different playing styles and player requirements in 4 seasons = we lack consistency on and off the pitch, let alone any identity of who we are or want to be.

For mind I don't think we truly appreciate the issues we have with the squad balance as put together under AW, and how that impacts what has happened since his departure. Whilst I do think we have improved aspects of the team balance and capability, those underlying issues are still evident when we are unable to play our best options who are best suited to Arteta's requirements, as seen again today. IMO those issues are core irrespective of manager or style of play, as the individual components of the team are not suited to each other's respective strengths or weaknesses regardless of manager or style.

IMO another appreciated issue in terms of it's significance and impacts, is the role of discipline as part of the team/club culture. At it's core AW's style only required discipline in terms of persistence and trust in the application of the style, rather than in an components of the style = managerial/coaching rather than on the pitch. The discipline on the pitch in game was kept relatively simple = all attack & defend, and focus via zone 14 (over simplification for point). By contrast both Emery and Arteta require far greater discipline by the players on and off the pitch in all aspects, even before we start to consider player suitability to those tactics and roles. This is why I have been so critical of the purge and rebuild not being started last summer = IMO we have wasted at least half this season.

IMO the club have commenced a process with Arteta that is long term but is neither quick, easy or cheap. The potential upside could set us on the 'right' path for some time, the potential downside is the financial impact post COVID is more than the appetite to see this through and we compromise yet again as we did under AW after the move, and top4 becomes/remains the brass ring as opposed to being a means to an end. Worst case scenario we flush this and start over again onto #4 and become more like MU off the pitch.

I think we all understand that a rebuild is not an easy thing. And that's exactly why we should only be looking for top tier managers. Guys capable of assuming that task and also performing at least decently. That is why you pay them millions and you demand them for extremely hard objectives.

It is pure crazyness to entrust a rebuild to a kindergarten manager. How a guy that is just learning his trade can succeed in that task? The club made a big mistake there.

Qwiss

A good rebuild isn't 10th in the league after a year and half. Thats not progress. No one expects a league title, most of us would have forgiven a lack of CL football for this season too but we are not going forward in any way. We are going backwards. Another year of Arteta could be devastating.

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