Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 30 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

speedy

AAStyle- wrote:
OGS may be a kindergarten manager regarding tactics and formation but it's clear that the guy knows how to handle toxic and low morale atmospheres.

Arteta is here for more than a year and still it seems like the team may fall to shambles if the opposition scores one goal (whether the first goal or a goal that ties the match when we were ahead), and it is clear that we start every game like we were kids afraid of doing something wrong.

Man-management (see case of Saliba) is, at best, erratic. Stubbornness is so evident than even fans with ABC knowledge of football like me can detect it.

My opinion: the guy today is a failure. He might become a good manager in 3-5 years, I don't know. But a club like Arsenal should never be the school for rookie managers (unless we find the new Pep or something like that).

By the end of this season, we will have already lost two years, I really hope the club takes the sensible decision and prevents the team from losing a third one.

He needs that strubbroness. All top managers are cut throat, Klopp has no time for players that arent killing themselves doing things exactly how he wants. He replaces long term injuries with new players he doesn't mess about. AF was the same RVP and Keane both said he was completely ruthless. AF even told players that turned down a chnace for a move their that he'd make sure they never played for ManU in future. Pep is completely ruthless. Wenger and Ancelotti have a magic way of getting on with everyone. But every other top manger I can think of is going to have that attitude.

Claudius

speedy wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
OGS may be a kindergarten manager regarding tactics and formation but it's clear that the guy knows how to handle toxic and low morale atmospheres.

Arteta is here for more than a year and still it seems like the team may fall to shambles if the opposition scores one goal (whether the first goal or a goal that ties the match when we were ahead), and it is clear that we start every game like we were kids afraid of doing something wrong.

Man-management (see case of Saliba) is, at best, erratic. Stubbornness is so evident than even fans with ABC knowledge of football like me can detect it.

My opinion: the guy today is a failure. He might become a good manager in 3-5 years, I don't know. But a club like Arsenal should never be the school for rookie managers (unless we find the new Pep or something like that).

By the end of this season, we will have already lost two years, I really hope the club takes the sensible decision and prevents the team from losing a third one.

He needs that strubbroness. All top managers are cut throat, Klopp has no time for players that arent killing themselves doing things exactly how he wants. He replaces long term injuries with new players he doesn't mess about. AF was the same RVP and Keane both said he was completely ruthless. AF even told players that turned down a chnace for a move their that he'd make sure they never played for ManU in future. Pep is completely ruthless. Wenger and Ancelotti have a magic way of getting on with everyone. But every other top manger I can think of is going to have that attitude.

Hmm. When Arteta came in and was ruthless with his non-negotiables and cut people out of the team, there was (and continue) to be complaints that he is unfair. I think he needs to be harsh with this team. These guys went for too long living like they were on holiday. Arteta has to create the culture that this is a place that accepts nothing less than pushing for the title - which will be not just how he treats the players, but also in how he deals with transfers.

I wonder how players feel about Xhaka. Those stats about his errors are scary

KurtEisner

I think it always depends on the dressing room in question. Guys like Guardiola, Klopp, Ferguson or Wenger are some of the best managers in the history of football, they'd take over any dressing room, because they're really good at what they do and were hugely successful. The vast majority of players will listen to what they have to say and accept them as authorities. Other managers don't have that luxury and will have to adapt to the situation at hand. That's one thing I feel Arteta has done pretty well overall. The mood around the club was horrible when he arrived and he made sure to be ruthless with troublemakers that were not performing, which was exactly what we needed at the time. Now the situation is different though, I don't think he could afford another Özil situation at this point, he now needs to make the best out of what he has and being ruthless towards someone like Saliba could hurt the teams' performance, if the results don't improve players will react differently to that kind of ruthlessnes towards their teammates.

speedy

Kurt Eisner wrote:
I think it always depends on the dressing room in question. Guys like Guardiola, Klopp, Ferguson or Wenger are some of the best managers in the history of football, they'd take over any dressing room, because they're really good at what they do and were hugely successful. The vast majority of players will listen to what they have to say and accept them as authorities. Other managers don't have that luxury and will have to adapt to the situation at hand. That's one thing I feel Arteta has done pretty well overall. The mood around the club was horrible when he arrived and he made sure to be ruthless with troublemakers that were not performing, which was exactly what we needed at the time. Now the situation is different though, I don't think he could afford another Özil situation at this point, he now needs to make the best out of what he has and being ruthless towards someone like Saliba could hurt the teams' performance, if the results don't improve players will react differently to that kind of ruthlessnes towards their teammates.

You have to look at what made them successful in the first place though and that was having those standards in the first place. They didnt become successful and then implement standards. The standards they set for themself is to give everything. Then they set standards for the people they work with. And the success came after that as a result. Teh setting high standards and softening to maintain relationships is what Wneger did and lets be honest it often worked. But I'm not sure many fans would be happy for us to go back to that.

Coombs

Players are much different now, as well. They wield way more power and have agents and entourages all looking for a piece of the action. If we want a flash in the pan season we can succumb to that, but building a sustainable organization to compete at a high level requires a more ground up approach with significant financial backing.

Gazza M

at some point there has to be a strong signal that we're moving in an upwards trajectory, and so far it's been a holding pattern at best. i understand there's alot of rebuilding happening, but seeing as though it appears the kroenkes will back him for at least 1 more season, there's no excuses from next season onwards. there has to be tangible progress in our league from opening day

Claudius

So all the data shows that we are significantly better in 2021 than we have been at at any time before in the Arteta reign. Arteta is now basically as good as Emery was at his best during his 20 game run on a trailing xG basis.

The gap to West Ham and Everton still stares at you, but I will give the guy a little bit of space. Think about his path

he joined the club a 15 months ago in the middle of a tough festive holiday period
we then went into a lockdown where he was unable to train with his players
he returned from the lockdown and moved away from his initial 4231 with Ozil to a 343 that won him the cup despite being an xG killer in both directions
due to the combination of winning a cup and being in Community Shield, we had 3 weeks less than everyone for summer break. We basically took a couple of weeks off and got right back to it
Arteta persisted with the 343 that had won him the cup, although based on where he started and where he is today with more success, 4231 is clearly his favored position
with Europa competition, he barely had free coaching time, and probably played 343 longer than he would’ve liked. He tried Willian and Laca at 10, and then finally inserted ESR when he was healthy. Along with Martinelli, and Saka on the right
here we are

Despite being here 15 months, it feels like he’s lost massive chunks of time in there due to Covid and his own early success. We also need to admit that the solutions he is coming up with are not consistent with a top club. In order to play his favored position, he had to try Laca and Willian, and then eventually ESR and another on-loan kid.
.
Let’s not neglect the disorder above him. I think it makes a world of difference if he is hired 1 month earlier, and doesn’t have a DoF transition in the middle of the summer, and the inability to acquire in Aouar the player who would’ve solved many of the progression issues we were having dumped all our AMs over the space of a year.

If all that sounds like a way for someone to be set-up for success, and he’s failing dismally, then by all means call for his head and bring in someone else.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
Hmm. When Arteta came in and was ruthless with his non-negotiables and cut people out of the team, there was (and continue) to be complaints that he is unfair.

The "non-negotiables" only apply to some, they seem to apply more the younger and Frencher you are.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
If all that sounds like a way for someone to be set-up for success, and he’s failing dismally, then by all means call for his head and bring in someone else.

No one was expecting success. We were expecting better than 10th though.

Meatwad

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
Hmm. When Arteta came in and was ruthless with his non-negotiables and cut people out of the team, there was (and continue) to be complaints that he is unfair.

The "non-negotiables" only apply to some, they seem to apply more the younger and Frencher you are.

exactly he's biased. i don't know what happened to him at PSG.

goon

You guys don't even know what the non negotiables are.

Qwiss

Well then the whole concept of his non-negotiables as something you can talk about is meaningless then. You can be neither positive nor negative about them because we have no idea if they are being met or not. Schroedinger's negotiables.

jones

Hes as biased as they come. Every manager is to some extent but he's going way overboard, it's ok if you prefer stability in certain positions what isn't is some find themselves on the bench or starting lineup regardless of performance.

FEBravo

If the non-negotiables are work really hard in training regardless, he may have been consistent. Xhaka and Willian's attitude in training may really be outstanding. At some point though, the performances must count for something, regardless of the non-negotiable

goon

Qwiss! wrote:
Well then the whole concept of his non-negotiables as something you can talk about is meaningless then. You can be neither positive nor negative about them because we have no idea if they are being met or not. Schroedinger's negotiables.

Eh? The fact that 2 players have been forced out tells me all I need to know that the non-negotiables, whatever they me be, are being enforced.

You guys are just pissed that he didn't account for how much or little you guys like players.

Clrnc

You guys have to take what Arteta says in presser with a pinch of salt. Just the other day someone quoted on what he says about Mustafi. He constantly lies with a straight face in presser to play mind games, most of what he says is not what he thinks. He says Mustafi is brilliant, wants to offer him a new contract and then 1 month later he gets terminated. He says Ozil is amazing, it's his fault he can't get the best out of him. He says Nelson had a superb game he will get more chances then Nelson disappears from the matchday squad complete for next few weeks.

The non negotiable is just random talks. Doubt he is really that inflexible and without biasedness.

Qwiss

goon wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Well then the whole concept of his non-negotiables as something you can talk about is meaningless then. You can be neither positive nor negative about them because we have no idea if they are being met or not. Schroedinger's negotiables.

Eh? The fact that 2 players have been forced out tells me all I need to know that the non-negotiables, whatever they me be, are being enforced.

You guys are just pissed that he didn't account for how much or little you guys like players.

You are making the same judgements about the "non-negotiables" based on the same info as everyone else, so your "You guys don't even know what the non negotiables are." comment is bullshit.

jones

I think oft means none of us know what they are.

Either way he's wrong and Clrnc is right there are no non negotiables or none worth speaking of. He's the manager of a football club he doesn't get to decide whether being tall or bald is a non negotiable, non negotiable is whether you perform to the desired level in training and match day and whether you're consistent. His own starting eleven isn't consistent in that regard which makes it all hot air and PR talk.

goon

I'm making the judgement that there ARE non-negotiables based on the fact that Arteta said there are and that 2 players, Guendouzi and upcoming French superstar, Mesut Ozil, were banished after falling foul of them.

You guys are speculating that he's biased based on absolutely nothing given that a) you don't know what they are and b) whether or not they're being met. I haven't said that he isn't biased either, he may well be.

QuincyAbeyie

goon wrote:
You guys are speculating that he's biased based on absolutely nothing given that a) you don't know what they are and b) whether or not they're being met. I haven't said that he isn't biased either, he may well be.

If speculating based on what you're seeing is absolutely nothing, may I ask what would be speculating based on something, other than a manager literally announcing in a presser that he's biased?

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